The Numbers Game: Boots, Part 2

[Brian Finch]

Will get some pics, I drilled the spine until it felt like it was moving buckled up! Figured it was safe bc will be stiffer cold.

I've used boosters- yet it always felt like the tibia was translating forward instead of the boot flexing.

 

[Brian Finch]

Hey Brian,

Yes, donuts are good, eh!

I also ski in the Dobie 150, but I don't find it to respond in an On/Off fashion as you and others have found. So it makes me wonder what the differences are and how those differences effect our perceptions! I wonder if details like: where we sit in the boot, how our lower leg sits & aligns, length of segments, closure & overlap of the cuff, forward lean, etc. combine to give us a unique feel even in the same or similar boot. Thus why I don't find it excessively stiff and you cut it apart!

Cheers!

I think you're right on it. I've got fat/wide/small feet. Bootfitters had me in a 24 for years & it never closed & I would have to duck tape under the buckles. I also bottomed out very early on the lower shell.

The 25 drives the fitters nuts- but it closes, barely & flexes better- but not much.

 

[bud heishman]

@NorSki the stiffness of the boot (fore-aft) has to do with multiple factors, but I'll sum it up with this, as I understand it.

1. Ability/terrain needs (race=stiffer, park=softer)
2. Dorsiflexion (more=softer, less=stiffer)
3. Strength/weight/body composition (short and stout and powerful in lower legs=stiffer boot, taller and lanker=softer boot)
4. Skier preference.

Don't know that I can agree with #'s 2,3??

 

[Jed Peters]

Don't know that I can agree with #'s 2,3??

Bud #2 is the same as what you say previous (people with more dorsiflextion can arguably tolerate a boot with more flex) and #3 relies on general premises of physiology.

 

[bud heishman]

Bud #2 is the same as what you say previous (people with more dorsiflextion can arguably tolerate a boot with more flex) and #3 relies on general premises of physiology.

That isn't an absolute. In general a skier with hyper mobility should be set up with a higher net forward lean angle to close the ankle a bit to take up a little slack. The flex choice still depends on their abilities and preferences. Conversely, the less dorsiflexion we want less net forward lean angle to open the ankle joint and permit full use of the ROM. In some instances this skier may need a stiffer flex to protect the ankle from over flexion and make more efficient use of the range of motion available. It's just not as black and white as your #2 statement.

Regarding point #3, remember, in general, shorter leg = shorter lever arm and the same flex rated boot will feel stiffer to this skier than a taller skier with a longer lower leg given the same length foot as the shorter person. So the opposite would be true from statement #3 given everything else equal.

 

[Chris Geib]

I think you're right on it. I've got fat/wide/small feet. Bootfitters had me in a 24 for years & it never closed & I would have to duck tape under the buckles. I also bottomed out very early on the lower shell.

The 25 drives the fitters nuts- but it closes, barely & flexes better- but not much.

I can relate. My lower shell will sorta close after the first couple runs and the heel settles completely in. But it won't complete close.

The bolded part about bottoming out makes me wonder if it is more a geometry puzzle then a flex/softening thing. Is your hinge point compatible with the boot's??? It is what I was talking about before about size, shape, position in the boot and I think is why many of us experience the same boot different (and why we might need to be cautious about applying our experience to others) If you are running into that wall in front of you, will any amount of softening really solve? ...could it make it worse by removing the resistance that existed to slow down your running into the wall? Would sorting the geometry possibly be another way to approach it?

???

 

[Jed Peters]

That isn't an absolute. In general a skier with hyper mobility should be set up with a higher net forward lean angle to close the ankle a bit to take up a little slack. The flex choice still depends on their abilities and preferences. Conversely, the less dorsiflexion we want less net forward lean angle to open the ankle joint and permit full use of the ROM. In some instances this skier may need a stiffer flex to protect the ankle from over flexion and make more efficient use of the range of motion available. It's just not as black and white as your #2 statement.

Regarding point #3, remember, in general, shorter leg = shorter lever arm and the same flex rated boot will feel stiffer to this skier than a taller skier with a longer lower leg given the same length foot as the shorter person. So the opposite would be true from statement #3 given everything else equal.

Agreed, my #2 is an oversimplification.

Re: 3, remember I am speaking to physiology, not geometry. Take a shorter, more compact, denser athlete, and they are going to have more power in the trunk area, etc.

Yes, you are right on all these points, @bud heishman -- and thank goodness that a 30
Day a year skiing lawyer with 3 kids doesn't know as much as you!!!!

 

[otto]

jed you are mixing metaphors looking for an absolute, where one does not exist. the length of the lever arm nor the strength or build, trump the action of the range of motion in the ankle joint. with one exception that could have to do with how tall you make the cuff to the height of the leg. ( thats another discussion, although cuff height I'm most boots is fully adjustable in either direction )

hyper mobile calls for limiting boot flex to prevent the skier that has the greater range from using the greater range. The boot is not a cast to put you in position, rather an early warning system to help guide you into staying in position. Hyper mobile ankle will have the skier struggling to find home base in the area of fore-aft balance. Limiting the shell flex and properly matching the pressure loading on the front of the leg, will help the early warning system to keep you in better balance. It will also help to reduce that pesky bleeding that keeps taking place on your shin, as well as those toasted quads that have you pulling off to the side of the run so you can lean on your poles and recover.

indicators on the hill show in the form of odd angles of the body in the sagittal plane. excessive forward position of the knees, counter balancing with a swayed back to compensate, creating odd angles in the frontal plane that sometimes appear to be under canting, as the skier throws more english to attempt to gain edge control higher in the turn, etc.

this is why the heart and sole of fore-aft balance comes from ramp angle, and it is not enough to just get the net angle correct. You must also match the flex of the shell and the fit of the cuff around the lower leg to prevent the skier from adapting compensatory moves from the ministry of silly walks...

the boot set up does not care if you are dense, or what the length of your lever arm is you are setting the boots ramp, forward lean and flex to best direct your skis to cooperate as you move through space. the better these steps are accomplished the more efficient and proficient the skier can be...

bud, ultimately the skier will tell you their preference for flex many times based on information that does not compute with what you see as the boot fitter...On no,i cannot possibly ski in a 110 flex my friend that is a ski instructor told me I need a 100 flex because I am ( okay fill in the blank... ) fat? skinny? a little touched?, low iq?, high iq?, a little flamboyant? As fitters we have the responsibility to walk the skier into the right flexing boot for the action of their ankle so they can progress. to be clear what i am disagreeing with is that the flex of the boot should not always "still depends on their abilities and preferences" as you stated in your last post. that is if all things are equal in the boot guys ability to read all of the tea leaves in front of him.

chris is asking the right questions in his last post...most definitely sorting of the geometry will give you resolution. tall order for boot fitters that cannot do proper assessment and math, and have no clue how the boot fits around the instep/ankle area.

IMHO i am going to go out on a limb here to say that we all agree that the majority of recreational skiers are skiing in boots that are too big. I am going to add another market standard that needs to be addressed. For skiers that have either limited dorsiflexion of the ankle or excessive dorsiflexion of the ankle, the majority of those skiers are skiing in boots that are too soft!

 

[Philpug]

IMHO i am going to go out on a limb here to say that we all agree that the majority of recreational skiers are skiing in boots that are too big. I am going to add another market standard that needs to be addressed. For skiers that have either limited dorsiflexion of the ankle or excessive dorsiflexion of the ankle, the majority of those skiers are skiing in boots that are too soft!

Gee, with that combination, what could wrong. And we wonder why skiers aren't getting any better. Sadly, the vast majority of these skers would also go out and buy they newest and latest ski.

 

[bbinder]

Really! Is there a newest and latest ski I can buy?

 

[Philpug]

Really! Is there a newest and latest ski I can buy?

As a matter of fact there is...and everyone in the lift line will know you got new skis..no one cares if you got new boots, that no fun.

 

[Brian Finch]

Will get some pics, I drilled the spine until it felt like it was moving buckled up! Figured it was safe bc will be stiffer cold.

I've used boosters- yet it always felt like the tibia was translating forward instead of the boot flexing.

 

[bud heishman]

bud, ultimately the skier will tell you their preference for flex many times based on information that does not compute with what you see as the boot fitter...On no,i cannot possibly ski in a 110 flex my friend that is a ski instructor told me I need a 100 flex because I am ( okay fill in the blank... ) fat? skinny? a little touched?, low iq?, high iq?, a little flamboyant? As fitters we have the responsibility to walk the skier into the right flexing boot for the action of their ankle so they can progress. to be clear what i am disagreeing with is that the flex of the boot should not always "still depends on their abilities and preferences" as you stated in your last post. that is if all things are equal in the boot guys ability to read all of the tea leaves in front of him.

Don't believe I have ever been criticized for under booting them? Jim I'd like to know more on your criteria for choosing ramp angle vs. lower leg angle, when in clicked into the binding system? What criteria are you using for adjusting ramp angle higher or lower other than ROM of ankle?

 

[bud heishman]

Will get some pics, I drilled the spine until it felt like it was moving buckled up! Figured it was safe bc will be stiffer cold.

I've used boosters- yet it always felt like the tibia was translating forward instead of the boot flexing.

Brian, how are you running your power strap? Before drilling holes and removing rivets, have you tried running your strap just around the liner first then buckling the upper cuff over top the power strap. This minimizing the gapping around your calf and pulls the spine with the lower leg when you flex. This creates a much more positive transfer of energy and minimizes the slop or lag time between shovel pressure and tail pressure, eliminating the dead zone.

 

[Brian Finch]

Brian, how are you running your power strap? Before drilling holes and removing rivets, have you tried running your strap just around the liner first then buckling the upper cuff over top the power strap. This minimizing the gapping around your calf and pulls the spine with the lower leg when you flex. This creates a much more positive transfer of energy and minimizes the slop or lag time between shovel pressure and tail pressure, eliminating the dead zone.

I have run them in this way, yet have moved toward over the cuff. The holes are in, but I've got more boots to play with

 

[bud heishman]

Why do you prefer over the cuff? Sounds like this is contributing to your flex issues?

 

[Brian Finch]

Why do you prefer over the cuff? Sounds like this is contributing to your flex issues?

I've seen others make it work, yet in a 24/25, only 1/2 of strap seems to fit under. You're take is greatly appreciated.

 

[Brian Finch]

^ strap does not fit well in other words.

 

[bud heishman]

Yes, Some boots work better than others but don't be concerned about wrinkles or kinks so much as insuring the "D" ring is around the liner under the cuff plastic and the strap is pushed as low as possible around the liner and snugged up tight. The performance difference is very noticeable. Sometimes a small slot or cut out can be made in cuff to permit a better fit.

 

[Brian Finch]

Yes, Some boots work better than others but don't be concerned about wrinkles or kinks so much as insuring the "D" ring is around the liner under the cuff plastic and the strap is pushed as low as possible around the liner and snugged up tight. The performance difference is very noticeable. Sometimes a small slot or cut out can be made in cuff to permit a better fit.

It works like butter on my full tilts!!!