BTW.... I wrote a ready for ski article over the summer for a Vermont paper. One drill- walk around in your boots 
!!! Yep for many- this is 'exercise'.
!!! Yep for many- this is 'exercise'.-
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The New Sole of Skiing?
BTW.... I wrote a ready for ski article over the summer for a Vermont paper. One drill- walk around in your boots
I'm gonna ban you, too.
I'm going to use this for my new tag line!!
One drill- walk around in your boots
OMG, how many laps around the coffee table do I really need to be able to do? *panic*
The following is an email newsletter I got from Jackson Hogan of Realskiers. It doesn't add much to @Philpug 's original post, but it does seem to solidify the thought that WTR soles will be "the thing" for many recreational skiers.
Get a Grip
If you are a lifelong skier, no matter how long that life may currently be, either you or someone you know has taken a nasty spill while crossing a slick parking area in their ski boots. These types of falls tend to be sudden and unmerciful, the landing area of unrelenting density. The injuries range from wounded pride to broken femurs. The broken bits aren't binding related and we tend not to think of these incidents as skiing-related. Yet they are intrinsic to our sport.
But they don't have to be. The solution, or at least a very considerable remedy, is already on the market. The walking sole walks among us, but because they're only rarely standard equipment, and their adoption may obsolete any current bindings in your personal fleet, the concept is confined to a corner of aftermarket products that have yet to gain much traction.
What I'm about to discuss may sound hopelessly arcane, but stay with me and all will be revealed. The reason walking soles are in a state of limbo has to do with standards, or in this case, a missing standard. Markets move faster than the standard-setting process, allowing two different solutions to reach the ski trade before a standard could be written specific to the requirements of this boot/binding system.
The once simple choice of boot sole has grown complicated.
To simplify what is not a simple situation, walking soles currently fall under the same specifications as touring soles (ISO 9523, for those taking notes), those rockered, fully treaded beasts that scream "mountaineering!" But walking soles aren't fully treaded: they retain a partial AFD (Anti-Friction Device) area that's smooth where the boot will contact the pad behind the toe piece. This allows them to work with certain compatible bindings that can accept either a standard alpine sole (ISO 5355) or a walking sole.
The reason there are boot standards in the first place is so that bindings can be built around their dimensions and materials, thereby assuring predictable functionality as a release/retention system. (Sorry for all this jargon. I served as General Secretary of the ASTM Committee on Snow Skiing just after the first alpine boot sole standard was passed by the DIN.) The current market is in a multi-norm miasma with the walking sole at the center of the fog.
These bindings will accept walking soles as well as standard alpine soles.
To recap the current market realities:
It's tantalizing to realize that the solution to a serious problem lies just out of reach. The question is, for how long? For walking sole and compatible bindings to become the norm, there ought to be specific norms for them to meet. Such discussions are underway and may lead to a relatively swift resolution.
What would the new "normal" look like? Nothing will change on the true touring front, where treaded, 9523 soles will continue to mate with pin bindings. Racers are unlikely to give up their monoblock "DIN" soles, preserving this sole configuration forever. (Side note: Tecnica made their alpine/hiking boot, the Cochise, with a DIN-dimension sole plus tech inserts rather than a touring sole, as that's what their athletes asked for.)
But for the vast majority of resort skiers the everyday boot will come with walking soles and bindings will evolve that serve the needs of all alpine skiers no matter what soles are on the bottoms of their boots.
Get a Grip
If you are a lifelong skier, no matter how long that life may currently be, either you or someone you know has taken a nasty spill while crossing a slick parking area in their ski boots. These types of falls tend to be sudden and unmerciful, the landing area of unrelenting density. The injuries range from wounded pride to broken femurs. The broken bits aren't binding related and we tend not to think of these incidents as skiing-related. Yet they are intrinsic to our sport.
But they don't have to be. The solution, or at least a very considerable remedy, is already on the market. The walking sole walks among us, but because they're only rarely standard equipment, and their adoption may obsolete any current bindings in your personal fleet, the concept is confined to a corner of aftermarket products that have yet to gain much traction.
What I'm about to discuss may sound hopelessly arcane, but stay with me and all will be revealed. The reason walking soles are in a state of limbo has to do with standards, or in this case, a missing standard. Markets move faster than the standard-setting process, allowing two different solutions to reach the ski trade before a standard could be written specific to the requirements of this boot/binding system.
The once simple choice of boot sole has grown complicated.
To simplify what is not a simple situation, walking soles currently fall under the same specifications as touring soles (ISO 9523, for those taking notes), those rockered, fully treaded beasts that scream "mountaineering!" But walking soles aren't fully treaded: they retain a partial AFD (Anti-Friction Device) area that's smooth where the boot will contact the pad behind the toe piece. This allows them to work with certain compatible bindings that can accept either a standard alpine sole (ISO 5355) or a walking sole.
The reason there are boot standards in the first place is so that bindings can be built around their dimensions and materials, thereby assuring predictable functionality as a release/retention system. (Sorry for all this jargon. I served as General Secretary of the ASTM Committee on Snow Skiing just after the first alpine boot sole standard was passed by the DIN.) The current market is in a multi-norm miasma with the walking sole at the center of the fog.
These bindings will accept walking soles as well as standard alpine soles.
To recap the current market realities:
- Walking soles are mostly aftermarket products, not original equipment.
- The majority of the boot market still uses alpine soles and the majority of bindings are still alpine bindings.
- There are two competing walk-sole-binding system, each with a slightly different rulebook:
- WTR (Walk To Ride): originated by Salomon/Atomic and adopted by Rossignol/Lange/Look
- Gripwalk®: created by Marker and embraced by Nordica and Dalbello
- Neither WTR soles nor Gripwalk soles should be used with standard alpine bindings. Remember this point.
- WTR bindings will accept WTR soles and standard soles, but a toe height adjustment is required when switching soles.
- Gripwalk bindings (and Sole.ID from Marker) will accept alpine soles and Gripwalk soles interchangeably without modification.
It's tantalizing to realize that the solution to a serious problem lies just out of reach. The question is, for how long? For walking sole and compatible bindings to become the norm, there ought to be specific norms for them to meet. Such discussions are underway and may lead to a relatively swift resolution.
What would the new "normal" look like? Nothing will change on the true touring front, where treaded, 9523 soles will continue to mate with pin bindings. Racers are unlikely to give up their monoblock "DIN" soles, preserving this sole configuration forever. (Side note: Tecnica made their alpine/hiking boot, the Cochise, with a DIN-dimension sole plus tech inserts rather than a touring sole, as that's what their athletes asked for.)
But for the vast majority of resort skiers the everyday boot will come with walking soles and bindings will evolve that serve the needs of all alpine skiers no matter what soles are on the bottoms of their boots.
BTW.... I wrote a ready for ski article over the summer for a Vermont paper. One drill- walk around in your boots
Wow...that's kind of... sad ...that this is "exercise?"
For me, though, walking in my ski boots as an exercise method, I'd end up doing something stupid to my knees.
I read just about this whole thread and it seems I'm always the guy with the one odd question, (which to me never seems odd at all), but as usual I'm always the guy coming from another direction.
So, somebody answer me this: I just bought new skis, the Motive 86Ti. Therefore I just started shopping for bindings and was surprised to see all the WTR bindings. Never heard of them until a few days ago, so I came here to look for some info and here it is. Except for my question: I have 2-year old Dodge ski boots with standard alpine lug soles, and I am unlikely to buy new boots anytime soon. So is there any reason at all I should NOT get a WTR Look Pivot for example? They seem to be cheaper than the "Old" pivot bindings now. Am I "safer" sticking with last years Look binding since I'll likely not need a WTR, or is the performance & safety with the new WTR so good with alpine soles, that it's foolish to NOT get the WTR, just in case, for future compatibility?
So, somebody answer me this: I just bought new skis, the Motive 86Ti. Therefore I just started shopping for bindings and was surprised to see all the WTR bindings. Never heard of them until a few days ago, so I came here to look for some info and here it is. Except for my question: I have 2-year old Dodge ski boots with standard alpine lug soles, and I am unlikely to buy new boots anytime soon. So is there any reason at all I should NOT get a WTR Look Pivot for example? They seem to be cheaper than the "Old" pivot bindings now. Am I "safer" sticking with last years Look binding since I'll likely not need a WTR, or is the performance & safety with the new WTR so good with alpine soles, that it's foolish to NOT get the WTR, just in case, for future compatibility?
The duel compatible binding from Rossi/Look is very cheap looking & appears to be just another point of weakness in the connection. Go w a standard Pivot & there is a $25 replacement AFD if you want to swap it up in the future- paging @Philpug for more beta.
If you have a Dodge boot, it's unlikely you want a cheap binding.
Best
Thread Starter
TS
Actually great question and worthy of asking, you get a cookie.
There are a few ways to look at this. First, why limit your options down the road, get the Pivot 12 or 14 Dual, that way you can cover all bases of you choose to get a WTR boot. As of 11/24/16 6:24 PM PST, it would have the ba WTR BOOT, not a Gripsole because Look does not recognize Gripsole being compatable. But IMHO, that will change. I honestly don't think that the new Dual bindings are less expensive than the outgoing model, they MAP at $30.00 more apples to apples and last years desing can be found on sale. What are you losing going to the Dual from last years design? A solid AFD verses the sliding one that is on the newer binding, som feel the solid one is a better interface. Menlally, I agree, very well I would never feel it on real world appliction but I will stand by it in my little corner bubble of the world.
Thanks, Phil and Brian for the great replies!
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- Nov 12, 2015
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Yeah I'm out.
At the cost of replacing all my bindings I'd rather go Quiver Killers, Beasts and a Tech boot than put any more cash toward ski cos that can't get themselves to a decent standard before pushing it at unsuspecting punters - does this mean we are going to have to panic buy DIN boots in the next year,
At the cost of replacing all my bindings I'd rather go Quiver Killers, Beasts and a Tech boot than put any more cash toward ski cos that can't get themselves to a decent standard before pushing it at unsuspecting punters - does this mean we are going to have to panic buy DIN boots in the next year,
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- Mar 1, 2017
- Posts
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Has anybody tested a GripWalk boot in Pivot Duals? I know the vendors are staking out turf, but mechanically it seems WTR and GripWalk might have enough overlapping features to allow crossover. But of course it would be nice to prove it with some actual release testing. I want to use my Dalbello Lupo Carbons in Pivots. My favorite boot and favorite binding of all time. I don't care if they are classified as AT or alpine, they're what I prefer for downhill.
Thread Starter
TS
Technically they are not currently compatable. You can have a shop test them, they will fail visual inspection but see if they will do the actual relaase test.
I'm in the middle of this.
Patrolling requires lots of walking. Slippery surfaces, in and out of buildings, up and down stairs. 10 hours a day and not enough of that is skiing.
I really like the security and comfort of the AT ski boot and especially the lug sole.
I just "refreshed" to the Dalebello Lupo Ti, and hate the idea that my selection of skis now require new bindings to suit. I've elected to use the Salomon Warden MNC. With the Look/Rossi Pivot (WTR) for days when I want to use conventional DIN spec sole boot, or I'm skiing off duty.
Patrolling requires lots of walking. Slippery surfaces, in and out of buildings, up and down stairs. 10 hours a day and not enough of that is skiing.
I really like the security and comfort of the AT ski boot and especially the lug sole.
I just "refreshed" to the Dalebello Lupo Ti, and hate the idea that my selection of skis now require new bindings to suit. I've elected to use the Salomon Warden MNC. With the Look/Rossi Pivot (WTR) for days when I want to use conventional DIN spec sole boot, or I'm skiing off duty.
Thread Starter
TS
We have had some changes since last year, I am working on some updates.
Newbie here, so take it for what it’s worth.
2015: rented ski boots were a pain (pun intended) to walk to the staging area, to lunch, and to the bus back to the hotel.
2017: rented boots were much more comfortable to walk in and easier to walk in.
While I might not be walking long distances, I am skiing for pleasure and I don’t care to have to walk in an odd way (physiologically speaking) if walking comfortably is an option with a simple purchase decision.
I am buying boots this year, and they will be picked out by the boot fitter.... with the caveat they must have the WTR option. I see many bindings have a simple 1/2 turn screw to change from Alpine to WTR soles. Please correct this newbie, but the boot toe lug (likely not the correct terminology) does not change, only the height of the lug due to the more rockered sole. The WTF setting on the bindings lowers the bar the soles rests upon to there should be no issue.
I get the mindset of why change what works, but the great thing is people are out there inventing better mousetraps, and the WTR is likely a better mousetrap. If we always resisted possible improvements, we would still have milk delivered in glass bottles via a horse draw carriage, lighting would be candle/lantern and there would be no ski lifts. Is WTR perfect yet? Who knows, but it is moving in the right direction. That being designing boots to be more practical for walking around.
2015: rented ski boots were a pain (pun intended) to walk to the staging area, to lunch, and to the bus back to the hotel.
2017: rented boots were much more comfortable to walk in and easier to walk in.
While I might not be walking long distances, I am skiing for pleasure and I don’t care to have to walk in an odd way (physiologically speaking) if walking comfortably is an option with a simple purchase decision.
I am buying boots this year, and they will be picked out by the boot fitter.... with the caveat they must have the WTR option. I see many bindings have a simple 1/2 turn screw to change from Alpine to WTR soles. Please correct this newbie, but the boot toe lug (likely not the correct terminology) does not change, only the height of the lug due to the more rockered sole. The WTF setting on the bindings lowers the bar the soles rests upon to there should be no issue.
I get the mindset of why change what works, but the great thing is people are out there inventing better mousetraps, and the WTR is likely a better mousetrap. If we always resisted possible improvements, we would still have milk delivered in glass bottles via a horse draw carriage, lighting would be candle/lantern and there would be no ski lifts. Is WTR perfect yet? Who knows, but it is moving in the right direction. That being designing boots to be more practical for walking around.
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