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The new dead end

Uke

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The old weight shift/edge and pressure snow plow turn is looked at as a dead end maneuver by many using elements that have to be untaught later. I have been wondering if the extension to initiate the new arc is something of the same thing. Like pushing the tails the 'up' move is firmly ingrained in most skiers. It is their release mechanisim, extend to disconect from the snow. Now I'm not saying that being able to un-weight the skis through extension is in any way wrong, in fact its a move that every skier should have. But for many it is the only move they have. Further, in many high level lessons rather than introduce alternative release moves the focus is in redirecting the extension as in 'don't extend up extend forward' still the extension to release the skis.

More later I hope, have to go skiing.

uke
 

Josh Matta

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The old weight shift/edge and pressure snow plow turn is looked at as a dead end maneuver by many using elements that have to be untaught later. I have been wondering if the extension to initiate the new arc is something of the same thing. Like pushing the tails the 'up' move is firmly ingrained in most skiers. It is their release mechanisim, extend to disconect from the snow. Now I'm not saying that being able to un-weight the skis through extension is in any way wrong, in fact its a move that every skier should have. But for many it is the only move they have. Further, in many high level lessons rather than introduce alternative release moves the focus is in redirecting the extension as in 'don't extend up extend forward' still the extension to release the skis.

More later I hope, have to go skiing.

uke

I think extending while the ski are flat is a dead end move for round as dynamic as possible modern ski turn. but also something that can be used in the extreme to hop over stuff or skids sideways if needed.

I am not sure who would argue other wise.
 

crgildart

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I'd hesitate to call it a "new dead end". Intermediate skiers have gotten caught up in the perpetual powerplow and stem moves for a long as people have been teaching others to go down a hill with long sticks strapped to their feet. I've only seen it be overly troublesome with people that don't ski often enough to break a bad habit.. keep reverting back to it because they aren't skiing several days in a row and only skiing occasionally.

I think it's rare for a very frequent skier taking lessons or ski team coaching to not be able to break out of it. The two weekend a year skier??? Who cares if they have some inefficiencies going on... As long as they can turn and stop pretty much wherever and whenever they want they're having as much fun as anyone else out there until they want to reach the next level.. and that takes more hours on the snow... which will facilitate the right technique adjustments with proper instruction.
 

Josh Matta

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I get a ton of 5 day a year skiers that do care when they are unable to ski something.....

I had one today in 6 inches of snow that was taught to point her belly button where she wanted to go, stem step and Z turn because turns are only to slow down. Bull:poo:

:doh:

The right way is fairly easy to teach, why not just teach it?
 

mdf

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Some of us old guys have an unnecessary "up move" from long ago, that is mostly beat into submission but sometimes comes back.
Do people really teach it now?
 
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Uke

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"You dribble the basketball on the downhill side of the skis, then stretch tall to shoot the ball, then dribble on the other side" is just one way that it is taught every day. I see it taught everywhere I go at all levels.
 

bud heishman

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Are we differentiating here between legs flexing and extending and "up moves"? Are we differentiating what else is occurring during an "up movement" that may or may not be functionally valid? I can imagine we are all over the map here in individual perceptions and perhaps more clarification is needed?
 
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Uke

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Bud,

When I was first thinking of this I was looking at the outcome that I observe in the skiing public who almost all have an extension to move the body around prior to edge change as opposed to an extension of the flexed new outside leg to maintain snow contact.

I use flexion/extension of the legs to regulate and direct pressure, I use the forces generated by the ski/snow interaction to move the body about.

uke
 

Ron

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I get a ton of 5 day a year skiers that do care when they are unable to ski something.....

I had one today in 6 inches of snow that was taught to point her belly button where she wanted to go, stem step and Z turn because turns are only to slow down. Bull:poo:

:doh:

The right way is fairly easy to teach, why not just teach it?

Good use of Emoticons....
 
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Uke

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Bud,

What is your response to the following statement?

If you are using f/e of the legs to manipulate the position of the body (com) then you can't effectively use f/e of the legs to manage and direct pressure and the forces generated by the skis.

uke
 

crgildart

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I get a ton of 5 day a year skiers that do care when they are unable to ski something.....

I had one today in 6 inches of snow that was taught to point her belly button where she wanted to go, stem step and Z turn because turns are only to slow down. Bull:poo:

:doh:

The right way is fairly easy to teach, why not just teach it?
100% agree.. But, folks that are having fun and able to solidly conquer the terrain they want don't necessarily need to be perfect carvers.. They do to reach the next level though and that takes a lot more hours on the snow. I think we're more in plateau territory than dead end territory as long as the student has time to work through learning better technique. There are lots of "dead ends" for those that don't have the bandwidth to practice drills and repetition.
 

Chris Geib

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Bud,

What is your response to the following statement?

If you are using f/e of the legs to manipulate the position of the body (com) then you can't effectively use f/e of the legs to manage and direct pressure and the forces generated by the skis.

uke


Not Bud (obviously) but my response would be: False

I would say we need to simultaneously manage/coordinate lateral, vertical and fore/aft (and more); working in one area should not preclude another. For example, change edges while cresting a large mogul or change edges in the deepest part of the trough between two of those large moguls. Lot’s taking place in both of those that needs coordinated.

That said, many will find that managing one thing will effect how they’re able to manage others. Moguls are great for exposing if you can dial in skills simultaneously or if you have to do them in series (or a specific sequence) …you’ll find there often is not time to do so in series!

I like Bud's "up like a tree" thoughts. If that's all you got, it is less than ideal. Still, managing that up/down thing is part of the deal through every turn....
 

bud heishman

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Bud,

What is your response to the following statement?

If you are using f/e of the legs to manipulate the position of the body (com) then you can't effectively use f/e of the legs to manage and direct pressure and the forces generated by the skis.

uke

I believe the two can live in harmony! and should.
 

oldschoolskier

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The old weight shift/edge and pressure snow plow turn is looked at as a dead end maneuver by many using elements that have to be untaught later. I have been wondering if the extension to initiate the new arc is something of the same thing. Like pushing the tails the 'up' move is firmly ingrained in most skiers. It is their release mechanisim, extend to disconect from the snow. Now I'm not saying that being able to un-weight the skis through extension is in any way wrong, in fact its a move that every skier should have. But for many it is the only move they have. Further, in many high level lessons rather than introduce alternative release moves the focus is in redirecting the extension as in 'don't extend up extend forward' still the extension to release the skis.

More later I hope, have to go skiing.

uke

This is one of those issues for me that has me miffed. I learned old school to start (this was part of it) and yes did it wrong at the beginning. It was a stepping stone into step turns, ultimately into parallel and later into carved turns (though these sort of occurred in the same short time frame). During this learning progression I learned to snow plow correctly. (These skills made the transition from straight to shaped easy, adjust the timing and balance points slightly and all of the learned skills applied.)

I find that skiers that have started on shaped skis lack this skill as they become better and as a result have difficulties mastering other skills as a result and have the same problem in reaching the advance status as we did on straight skis as they have not yet master the need intermediate skills (our lack of skills were slightly different, yet the problem is the same "lack of skill set issue").

So in saying Snow Plow is a dead end is very wrong, it is a skill set to be learned. Now if you say, with current equipment it may not be the best skill to learn at the start as it may hinder progress is something different all together. Or how it is taught may be wrong , is again correct. Schools of thought and instruction, sometimes are very slow in changing methodology even though equipment and methodology can advance quickly, hence some of the issues you see.

No offence meant towards very good instructors (bud, kneale and josh just to mention a few) as they do get it, adapt and teach what's required at each level. The reason they can do this is they understand the importance of a skill and when it is needed to take the next step. (Cheers instructors).

To be good you gotta learn it all!
 

Erik Timmerman

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There's nothing inherently wrong with the up move. The problem is if it is the only thing you can do. What can be hard is to unlink the different skills. You should be able to move up without pivoting the skis. Some can't. This is where the instructor can introduce a drill to use as a pattern breaker to help the student unlink the two.
 
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