The "Magic Move" of Skiing ?

[wutangclan]

@Fishbowl, then let me clarify again what I am saying, also best thought of as two separate claims:

1. I honestly believe that it's relatively easy for able-bodied adults to pick up basic skiing proficiency, i.e. become "begintermediates" who cruise on green and easy-blue runs. On this we disagree, and you're right that it's probably best left for another thread.

2. To really master the sport at an advanced level, there are no magic moves. There's no way around the fact that it involves hard work, and this is where the "narrative" that you speak of likely applies.

 

[David Chaus]

I will add that it might not have been “the” magic move that improved your golf game, rather it was all the learning that took place prior to that moment of insight that enabled you to take advantage of the magic. “Aha” moments are usually not just the moment, but all the moments preceding that we weren’t paying attention to .

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I will add that it might not have been “the” magic move that improved your golf game, rather it was all the learning that took place prior to that moment of insight that enabled you to take advantage of the magic. “Aha” moments are usually not just the moment, but all the moments preceding that we weren’t paying attention to .

I believe this is the case of every "ah-ha" moment in athletics. If you aren't ready, you won't get it.

 

[geepers]

Yes, you are completely misconstruing and misrepresenting what I have said. Especially if you actually believe I said that skier retention is down because instructors have failed to come up with more magic moves????

There are two separate subjects here.

The first, and I apologize for being repetitive, is the subject of magic moves in sports. My experience was in golf. I applied a magic move from an instructional pamphlet and it immediately and consistently improved my game. I asked in the OP if such moves might exist in skiing, and if they do, how and when would they be applied and what form would they take. Anything more than that is in your imagination. I have not once stated that there is a magic move for skiing. If anyone is upset over that, I don’t know how to respond.

The second issue is that of skier retention, which I brought up to counter the statement that skiing is an easy sport for any athletic adult. So yes, I belive that four out of five new skiers not returning is a failure for the skiing industry. And whilst I belive that that most of those new participants simply discover that they don’t enjoy skiing, that the current form of ski schools and instruction should also own proportion of that statistic. Now, I understand that this opinion holds some controversy, and may even cause consternation amongst the instructors here, but it is a valid position to hold. If you want to get defensive over that, I understand. Accusations of trolling and axe grinding aside, I am happy to debate this further in a new thread, should anyone wish to.

At one of the larger resorts in BC the director of snow sports told our CSIA L2 course the retention rate for the mountain was 55%. Compared to around 18% Canada wide. They have good intro programs - like never-ever days for $25 - and beginner lesson guarantees.

So it's pretty clear that a functioning ski school teaching to CSIA methods can have a favourable impact on retention rates.

 

[Fishbowl]

I will add that it might not have been “the” magic move that improved your golf game, rather it was all the learning that took place prior to that moment of insight that enabled you to take advantage of the magic. “Aha” moments are usually not just the moment, but all the moments preceding that we weren’t paying attention to .

Absolutely.

The only way to see if a move like this truly is "magic" , would be to teach it to absolute beginners and see how they progress compared to more traditional teaching methods. Typically, the only people who would be attracted to an "off label" short cut method like this would be frustrated intermediates looking for the next level, so I don;t know if a true beginner has ever been exposed to this particular method.

 

[JESinstr]

As I posted on page 2 of this thread, balance is fundamental to all the "moves" that follow and the methodology of dynamically balancing on a moving platform is different from the way we balance in everyday life. When balancing on skis, we must secure the upper mass from "flying around" and we must secure the feet to a position under the COM. Not brain surgery, just understanding + practice = experience.

@Bad Bob Had the right short answer....Dynamic Balance. Balance while on the move.

But as @T-Square pointed out there is dynamic balance and then there is dynamic balance on a moving platform.

Off skis, we humans dynamically balance during the creation of locomotion (walking running skipping etc). But this method of dynamic balance is totally different from the method required for skiing. Human locomotion is accomplished by pushing and catching our mass using the opposite ends of our feet in a "rock over" method . We rely heavily on plantar flexion to push and absorb. On skis we need to learn to consistently and reliably balance through the arch supported by the balls of the foot and the heel but making sure that both support points are secure on the boot bed. How much we can move fore and aft under this construct is called the "Cone of Stability" See Kipp's video below.

@Steve has it right with articulation as the way we achieve dynamically balance through the arch. The ankles are the most important as they create the boot shin interface. Contrary to conventional wisdom the knees are relatively inconsequential as they are an intermediary to the flexing and extending of the ankles and hips. The hips are the most critical because in skiing, they don't tilt forward as they do when creating locomotion. This is a subtle but important difference.

Ron Kipp's "Flex Your Ankles" Video provides us with the fundamental magic move....Dorsiflexion..... the dynamic tension it brings to the ability to maintain a centered stance from which all the other "magic moves" emanate. .

Stand up and begin bouncing up and down (using the 3 hinges) so that your COM goes through the arch. Focus on the hip rotation. Pretty easy to do but you can see how quickly you could loose that balance point if your were on ice. Now, create tension by flexing your mid section (core) and dorsiflexion at the same time. You will see how the tension applied on the top of the hinge system and on the bottom provides a very controllable, stable platform bounded by the balls of the feet and heel.

It is the tension from dorsiflexion (vs plantar flexion) that is new to dynamic balance on a moving platform equation. Once a skier gets command of this movement pattern all the other "magic moves" will be possible.

 

[wutangclan]

At one of the larger resorts in BC the director of snow sports told our CSIA L2 course the retention rate for the mountain was 55%. Compared to around 18% Canada wide. They have good intro programs - like never-ever days for $25 - and beginner lesson guarantees.

So it's pretty clear that a functioning ski school teaching to CSIA methods can have a favourable impact on retention rates.

As far as I'm aware, all ski schools at Canadian resorts are “in the system", i.e. require their instructors to be CSIA certified except if they possess an advanced foreign certification (typically BASI/APSI/NZSIA). While there is some regional variation in CSIA standards, it's not enough to explain a local customer retention rate that is supposedly 3x higher than the national average. One or both statistics are suspect, and most of any real difference in quality of teaching is likely due to each resort's organizational culture. I've taught at 3 out of the 5 resorts in the Vancouver, BC area (Whistler, Cypress, Grouse, Seymour, Hemlock) over the last 15 years, and I feel that they are all quite different in terms of target market (day vs. destination), ownership structure, infrastructure, program offerings, headcount, workload, scheduling, staff training, staff demographics, staff culture, etc. These factors all shape how an instructor provides customer service. Just about the only commonalities across the resorts are ski technique/pedagogy (thanks to the CSIA), and pay (uniformly terrible).

 

[François Pugh]

Deliberate tipping the ski to turn (instead of just pointing the ski to turn) strikes me as a major move required for advanced/expert skiing.

 

[Mike King]

Deliberate tipping the ski to turn (instead of just pointing the ski to turn) strikes me as a major move required for advanced/expert skiing.

As are appropriate flexion and extension moves.

 

[geepers]

As far as I'm aware, all ski schools at Canadian resorts are “in the system", i.e. require their instructors to be CSIA certified except if they possess an advanced foreign certification (typically BASI/APSI/NZSIA). While there is some regional variation in CSIA standards, it's not enough to explain a local customer retention rate that is supposedly 3x higher than the national average. One or both statistics are suspect, and most of any real difference in quality of teaching is likely due to each resort's organizational culture. I've taught at 3 out of the 5 resorts in the Vancouver, BC area (Whistler, Cypress, Grouse, Seymour, Hemlock) over the last 15 years, and I feel that they are all quite different in terms of target market (day vs. destination), ownership structure, infrastructure, program offerings, headcount, workload, scheduling, staff training, staff demographics, staff culture, etc. These factors all shape how an instructor provides customer service. Just about the only commonalities across the resorts are ski technique/pedagogy (thanks to the CSIA), and pay (uniformly terrible).

Guess it is unlikely for any resort to run without a ski school. So perhaps not a factor in retention.

May be other factors, like location wrt a major population center. Resorts close to a big city likely to have a much higher number of casual drop-ins and maybe therefore a lower retention rate - it's too easy to drive home and there's other things to do. If a new customer has made an effort to travel out into the boonies then it probably means a greater mental commitment to the activity.

(I've no reason to doubt that Director's stats for the resort. They have proximity pass readers and I know they use the info in various other ways. For example all the +100 day riders for the season get a pin which is a nice touch.)

 

[Doby Man]

What more of a free-for-all of conceptual attribution could a word conjure than the term “magic” and, no less, in reference to something equally as arbitrary as ski technique. It is the equivalent of applying logic to an argument over which Marvel Comics superhero would win a ski technique fight: “Superman has more balance than batman, The Flash is quickest to the new outside edge, The Silver Surfer has best platform management, Aquaman is the most fluid, Captain America is PSIA certified and, The Riddler, obviously a fully trained ski instructor … “

 

[QueueCT]

I've never found a magic move. But I've found "turn thoughts" which are analogous to "swing thoughts" in golf. I keep one thought in my head to help me at any given point in time. Once it was to pull back the boot on my outside ski (not a great move but it helped me over a hump). Another few weeks it was about retracting my skis underneath me to prevent the old "up and down" move. Early this season I found myself banking turns for some reason so spent some time feeling angulation in my hips to get my weighting right. Later in the season it was pressuring from the ball of my foot to the heel during quick turns then getting back forward to initiate the next turn.

My point is that there is no one move unless you want it to be as broad as "tip your ski on edge and balance against the forces." There's only a move at a particular point in time that gets you to the next level ... or stops regression. The magic move for a beginner is different from an intermediate is different from an advanced skier.

 

[slowrider]

The magic move for a beginner is different from an intermediate is different from an advanced skier.

Vertical separation would be a magic move to take the Intermediate to Advanced?

 

[Jim McDonald]

My $0.02: There is NO magic move to expertise. The only way to achieve it is practice, practice & more practice (of proper technique, of course).

Most any schoolyard hero can hit eight of 10 free throws, but at the foul line in Madison Square Garden with thousands of people right behind the basket screaming and waving those idiotic thunder sticks? Just watch what happens.

I broke 80 once! It was from the white tees; there wasn't any rough worth mentioning and the greens were soft; a couple of long putts fell and the driver was unusually well-mannered that day. I probably shot 104 the next round.

It's the same with skiing. On a bluebird day in perfect snow I can look pretty accomplished (to those who don't/can't "observe"), but throw in some icy bumps and a little fog and I turn into a terrified beginner -- sloppy technique and lack of practice will always betray ya.

I wish there was a magic move; I'd buy it in a NY second (why wait even a minute?)!
But the truth is, when I go skiing I'm more interested in enjoying myself than in putting in the work (yes, WORK) it would take to become a genuinely advanced skier.

 

[wutangclan]

I've no reason to doubt that Director's stats for the resort. They have proximity pass readers and I know they use the info in various other ways. For example all the +100 day riders for the season get a pin which is a nice touch.

That's encouraging to hear. I'm more inclined to believe 55% retention than 18%. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

 

[JESinstr]

My $0.02: There is NO magic move to expertise. The only way to achieve it is practice, practice & more practice (of proper technique, of course).

Most any schoolyard hero can hit eight of 10 free throws, but at the foul line in Madison Square Garden with thousands of people right behind the basket screaming and waving those idiotic thunder sticks? Just watch what happens.

I broke 80 once! It was from the white tees; there wasn't any rough worth mentioning and the greens were soft; a couple of long putts fell and the driver was unusually well-mannered that day. I probably shot 104 the next round.

It's the same with skiing. On a bluebird day in perfect snow I can look pretty accomplished (to those who don't/can't "observe"), but throw in some icy bumps and a little fog and I turn into a terrified beginner -- sloppy technique and lack of practice will always betray ya.

I wish there was a magic move; I'd buy it in a NY second (why wait even a minute?)!
But the truth is, when I go skiing I'm more interested in enjoying myself than in putting in the work (yes, WORK) it would take to become a genuinely advanced skier.

Couple of comments (the first being off handed):

You can't call the mechanics of what Bubba Watson did on his shot into the 18th last Sunday proper technique. It was simply pure magic!

Your last sentence really hit the point that we often ignore when responding to a post and that is the recognition that there is skiing the SPORT and skiing the EXPERIENCE.

 

[fatbob]

What more of a free-for-all of conceptual attribution could a word conjure than the term “magic” and, no less, in reference to something equally as arbitrary as ski technique. It is the equivalent of applying logic to an argument over which Marvel Comics superhero would win a ski technique fight: “Superman has more balance than batman, The Flash is quickest to the new outside edge, The Silver Surfer has best platform management, Aquaman is the most fluid, Captain America is PSIA certified and, The Riddler, obviously a fully trained ski instructor … “

Duh. Even the newbiest newb to ever grace the bunny slope knows that a bunch of them are DC characters.


See any instruction thread can get irritatingly pedantic

 

[François Pugh]

^^^ plus what makes you think Superman has better balance than Batman?

 

[Uke]

Superman don't need no balance. He can fly.

 

[Choucas]

To me, the mechanics of hitting a golf ball golf and skiing down a slope are very much the same. They both require the ability to maintain dynamic balance. While skiing seems to be the more complex of the two because you are sliding over an ever changing medium and have to deal with managing your speed and direction, we somehow find hitting a golf ball while we and it are stationary to be much harder to consistently accomplish. As a golf and ski friend of mine has often said, "If my skiing was like my golf, I'd be in the woods about every other turn." Both sports require that you develop your own athletic radar. That is, the ability to know what's going to happen before it happens. This allows you to be relaxed and proactive rather than tense and reactive. This only can happen when you have dynamic balance throughout your turn(s) and throughout your golf swing(s), yes, even putting. Easy to say, hard to do. If a swing thought from a 1974 "how to" golf pamphlet makes it work for you, then that's your secret move. I know that the cover of almost every golf and ski publication ever printed hypes an article inside that make the same promise of mastering the slopes or finding hidden distance. An important attraction of both sports is the challenge of getting better, so it's always a puzzle we love to work on solving. Fortunately, being outdoors, being with friends, and sharing the experiences more than makes up for our inevitable miscues on the hill and the dubs and 3 putts that come with the territory.