The "Magic Move" of Skiing ?

[Steve]

There isn't much "magic" in skiing on the bunny slope. To experience the magic of skiing you need to ski at least a few times (if not many, many more.) A realization that "this is going to take a lot of practice" is probably at the core of it. Just like someone playing a musical instrument for the first time. You can't blame the quality of the instruction. Nothing worthwhile comes easily.

 

[markojp]

If those first time time participants found skiing to be easy and enjoyed their time on the slopes, all those objections in your chart would raised. The reality is that they had a miserable time, and looked for reasons not to come back.

Yer on the edge of trolling there, fish. For many it's cost benefit. I'm guessing that those with easier access to the hill (mileage and cost in particular) have a much higher return rate. The family from Dallas who rarely ski? Probably a much higher dropout rate. To re-state the magic move, relocate and be close to a hill with time and money to apply to improvement.

 

[geepers]

If those first time time participants found skiing to be easy and enjoyed their time on the slopes, all those objections in your chart would raised. The reality is that they had a miserable time, and looked for reasons not to come back.

Some-one I know once observed that skiing is fun if you don't mind standing on top of a moving platform but that if your main aim is to stop the platform from moving then skiing may just not be your thing.

Of course if your objective in a magic move is to improve 1st timer retention then I'd suggest that nothing proposed so far comes even close to passing that litmus test.

 

[David Chaus]

The OP was about whether there was a simple concept that would lead to major improvements for a more-or-less experienced skier struggling to gain mastery.

Yeah I don't buy the survey results either - if let's say 50% were experiencing the most magical feeling ever then they would't be listing logistics as an objection. I bet "harder than it looked" might score highly though in a truthful story. What it really means is the experience wasn't enough fun to be worth the cost/time/hassle factors.

Funny story, I’ve seen a tech-worker type on the slopes who was surprised to find skiing IRL not as simple as the skiing simulator game he had apparently mastered.

 

[David Chaus]

The OP was about whether there was a simple concept that would lead to major improvements for an experienced skier struggling to gain greater mastery. Jus thought I’d mention that. Proceed with the permutations...

Yeah I don't buy the survey results either - if let's say 50% were experiencing the most magical feeling ever then they would't be listing logistics as an objection. I bet "harder than it looked" might score highly though in a truthful story. What it really means is the experience wasn't enough fun to be worth the cost/time/hassle factors.

Funny story, I’ve seen a tech-worker type on the slopes who was surprised to find skiing IRL not as simple as the skiing simulator game he had apparently mastered.

 

[geepers]

The OP was about whether there was a simple concept that would lead to major improvements for a more-or-less experienced skier struggling to gain mastery.

Twas the OP himself...

 

[Fishbowl]

Just to be clear................at no time have I stated that there is a magic move in skiing, I have just asked if others think there is one, and pondered in what form it might take. My experience was in golf.

Edited for clarity.

 

[Fishbowl]

Yer on the edge of trolling there, fish. For many it's cost benefit. I'm guessing that those with easier access to the hill (mileage and cost in particular) have a much higher return rate. The family from Dallas who rarely ski? Probably a much higher dropout rate. To re-state the magic move, relocate and be close to a hill with time and money to apply to improvement.

Perhaps you could specify exactly what is trolling about my statement. I disagreed with the premise of a chart, gave a valid reason for doing so, and was not alone in my opinion?

The guy who turns up for the first time to ski already knows how far it is, how cold it is and how much it will cost. So there are few surprises. Once there his decision to continue with the sport will be based on how much fun he has that first day. Four out of five people don't think it is worth the effort to come back. You are free to disagree with that, but stating it doesn't make me a troll.

 

[markojp]

Fish, do you work with those folks coming up to the mountain for the first time? 'Where' is huge. The drive up to Crystal Mtn or Stevens Pass is fraught, and the trip is early. Mix in a couple kids, the dog, the cost of rentals for the family, the waiting, and the new and alien culture of the sport are daunting. It takes desire and commitment to take part even before the first ski lesson line up. I don't know that my family would have participated when we started in 1966 in similar circumstances.

In contrast, we had two small local hills minutes from town; five to the west and ten to the east. It was relatively cheap, and the town had a great ski club, gear swap, etc... it was easy to go skiing. Magic happened on those two small hills. 50+ years later, it still does. Small kids, go up for a couple hours and head home. Drop off the kids to ski after school. Hang out with the neighbors. Sure, the big areas have the vertical, the drama, the gnar, but the little hills have a high return rate and are the seed of the core skiing diaspora that keep the majors and indeed, the industry in business.. Phil, Trish, Kneale Bronson, and many others here share similar trajectories.

Back to the Seattle areas, we're seeing a ground swell of new skiers from non-skiing cultural backgrounds. Many locals now speak Mandarin or Hindi, and they don't quit. They want to ski. They're bringing the same energy and excitement levels to the sport that remind many of the late 60's and early 70's. Skier days are NOT down in this region with the exception of the occasional low snow winters. Parking lots are full by 9:00am. Local shops sell through their rentals by Christmas in many cases, and sell through rates at local retailers is very good.

The only thing that could derail this is a significant downturn in the economy, which is always possible, or radical changes in immigration laws. Skiing is expensive, period. I'm rambling a bit now and absolutely recognise that all is not always bright and well in the winter sports world. There's more competition from other activities for families drawn to sport. Ski culture itself is atomized into subcultures that aren't welcoming to newcomers, and in the end, for most adult learners, skiing isn't easy.

Sure, one can become a competent intermediate, but that may still take several seasons of 8-10 days a year participation. Many can't and won't do it. One trip is a lark, but many just don't have time and energy after putting in a 50+ hour work week, and that's before we talk about stagnant wages in work fields that previously could have supported a family and a ski habit.

Anyhow... all is not as bleak as you suggest, Fishbowl. Statements that 'they had a miserable time so they didn't come back' seems more a hyperbolic extrapolation of opinion from the figures presented that certainty isn't shared by all or even many here from what I can see, but anyhow, that's enough for now.... and we're on page 6.

 

[jimtransition]

Perhaps you could specify exactly what is trolling about my statement. I disagreed with the premise of a chart, gave a valid reason for doing so, and was not alone in my opinion?

The guy who turns up for the first time to ski already knows how far it is, how cold it is and how much it will cost. So there are few surprises. Once there his decision to continue with the sport will be based on how much fun he has that first day. Four out of five people don't think it is worth the effort to come back. You are free to disagree with that, but stating it doesn't make me a troll.

I don't really get where you are going with all this, are you saying we need to do more research into a magic move in order to better retain beginner skiers?

 

[wutangclan]

@Fishbowl, I think the reason why some of us fee like you're either trolling or have an ax to grind is because you are laying all the blame for 83% of first-time skiers lack of enjoyment, retention of these skiers, etc. at the feet of instructors, the industry, etc. They've "failed miserably" for not coming up with more magic moves. Am I paraphrasing / interpreting you incorrectly? At this point it would be a bit disingenuous for you to say yes, given that you've stated and restated the same position a few different ways now.

Having taught skiing for ~15 years to people of all ages and abilities, I come away with the observation that the most reliable "magic move" is this: choose parents with the dedication and disposable income to put you in ski school and/or a race program, starting from a young age (before 10). Because it's an immutable fact of life that becoming proficient at anything new, be it piano, poker, politics or Polish, gets harder and harder, the older you are. Once you're past your teens, both neuroplasticity and hypertrophy are drastically diminished -- thereafter most changes and growth that you can achieve are incremental, building on existing accomplishments.

A lot of this thread was devoted to discussing what magic moves exist or what a magic move is defined as. My point wasn't so much that little tricks (i.e. drills) for improvement don't exist, but more that they are -- in the long run -- useless without practice and repetition, because whatever change that was revealed with the magic move won't automatically stick, especially once you're an adult. This is especially true with skiing which involves so many movement patterns that are the opposite to what is instinctive and/or normal for newcomers to the sport. Balance on the outside ski? Upper/lower-body counter-rotation? Face down the hill? Or even just bending/using your legs? All completely counter-intuitive for the sedentary person accustomed to performing most of their daily activities with their hands, and are walking with grip between the soles of their comfortable shoes and level ground. For grown adults, it takes a lot of practice to undo existing muscle memory and permanently adopt new movement patterns, regardless of whatever "aha!" moments of breakthrough and discovery you had. Thus my contention that the only true magic move is distinctly unmagical hard work. It's hard for most time-constrained working stiffs to also work hard at their hobbies, but there's no way around it if you want to really improve.

Back to first-timer activity-abandonment rates -- I'd be interested to see the stats (if you have them) for other sports and hobbies. I wouldn't be surprised if they were also in the 80% range. I myself have tried out guitar, rock climbing, running, sailing, flying, etc ... the list goes on, but I always end up reverting to my two main passions: cycling and skiing. Do you think it's because those were all horrible experiences for me?

 

[rcc55125]

When you say "Magic Move" I think there is, maybe not one but a generality of movement that is required for effective, efficient skiing.
Thus, PSIA has the 5 Fundamentals. These are based on the body movements that lead to effective, efficient skiing.
However, I recently attended a clinic on boot fitting and alignment that brought up an interesting issue related to new skier retention.
In 2001 85% of first time skiers quit. Last year was about the same percentage of first timer drop outs. Skis have changed, boots have changed, even slope grooming is much better today. So, is there anything that hasn't changed? Well, yes, the human body.
One stat brought out in the clinic was that 80% of all people have feet that pronate. The average rental boot is about a 104 last. Put a pronated foot in a large loose boot and ask this foot to rotate or tip the ski and it will be very very hard. Even getting the basic stance correct will be difficult. So, after a day or week of frustration is it any wonder that 80% of first timers quit.
This clinic was presented by a boot fitter and orthotic maker who is very, very good at his craft so it is understandable that this might be his position. As instructors we need to be aware of this and help students seek solutions if we suspect foot/boot issues are affecting a students ability to learn the sport.

Now these pronated feet ride surf boards, skate boards and do slack line very well without any special equipment. So why can't they ski?
This brings us to David McPhail (https://skimoves.me/). In a broad sense McPhail's position is pronation is normal and a ski boot needs to allow the pronation to work for the skier. He has a couple of patents on ski boot design that hold the foot while allowing it to move so the skier can better balance over the ski. McPhail also doesn't like power straps (not necessarily booster straps) because they act as a fifth buckle and impede the ankle glide path; this is a very interesting topic. Another one of Davids key issues is total ramp angle, Zeppa plus binding ramp. For the average recessional skier this total ramp needs to be under 3 degrees. WC skiers are getting into the 0 to 1.5 degree range. These are not things that can be adjusted with rental equipment.

Anyway, the take away for me is there are basic movements, maybe not one magic move, needed to allow the most efficient skiing. These movements are primarily associated with the feet or at least start with the feet. If the feet can't properly move in the ski boot they can't properly move the ski. Watch your students movements. For the student that is really struggling change the boot/ski fit to what degree you can (I know it's very little) and hope for the best. If we could get the first time skier drop out rate down to 70% it would be a huge improvement.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Whatever movement you make, it must not be forced if it's to be efficient. It's tension that makes smooth movements impossible. Generally speaking, fear causes tension. You need to learn to let go.

 

[graham418]

Hmmmm. 6 pages in, I think the answer to the original question might be no?

 

[Wilhelmson]

Whatever gets you to to the "magic moment" is the "magic move." Whether the catalyst is in a book, lesson, or just from dumb luck and practice, there's a defining moment of freedom, like riding a bike for the first time.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Whatever movement you make, it must not be forced if it's to be efficient. It's tension that makes smooth movements impossible. Generally speaking, fear causes tension. You need to learn to let go.

I was going to mention fear in my previous post but you say it well. Back to the kid riding the bike, it's probably 25% balance and 75% overcoming fear.

 

[Seldomski]

I take it back, there is a magic move in skiing. It is a really well-fitting boot. Without a good interaction between your foot and the ski, your skiing is limited to the clumsy interaction of your foot and the shell. Get the perfect boot, and it becomes possible to really feel the snow interaction and your skiing and comfort while skiing can improve dramatically.

Good luck, I didn't say it was an "easy" move...

 

[Marker]

Thanks for the kind words.

Regarding your comments on tipping of the new inside ski. Why does that have to be singled out? Our legs naturally want to be parallel and vertically, they should be working in concert (again just like pedalling a bicycle). It's when they are not, that we start inventing stuff like "pinkie leads the way" and "tip the inside ski" etc. Although well intentioned, these activities tend to take the focus off of establishing the outside ski for success of the upcoming turn.

IMO learning to soften then shorten the inside leg is the best way to free up the ski in order to rotate and work in concert with the outside ski on the building of edge angles. This is something that can be instilled in beginners right from the get go and is especially important for those in a wedge. For more advanced skiers, when you exit the fall line and the slope reverses, active shortening of the inside leg places the ski in position to significantly support turn completion and follow on transition. .

"Edging happens as a result of the inside leg getting shorter" (JF Beaulieu)

Well, perhaps I was building the inside ski tipping on a developing foundation of inside leg shortening, but to quote some one else in this thread, it sure felt "automagical" to me...

 

[markojp]

Whatever gets you to to the "magic moment" is the "magic move." Whether the catalyst is in a book, lesson, or just from dumb luck and practice, there's a defining moment of freedom, like riding a bike for the first time.

Funny you mention riding a bike, and on a small tangent, we often joke that you can pick up any issue of Bicycling magazing and find nearly every article has been re-written roughly once every 5 years with a couple of new pictures and now some f-bombs and other bad language to keep the content 'fresh'. Bottom line is it's essentially the same activity as it's always been. Sound familiar?

 

[Fishbowl]

@Fishbowl, I think the reason why some of us fee like you're either trolling or have an ax to grind is because you are laying all the blame for 83% of first-time skiers lack of enjoyment, retention of these skiers, etc. at the feet of instructors, the industry, etc. They've "failed miserably" for not coming up with more magic moves. Am I paraphrasing / interpreting you incorrectly? At this point it would be a bit disingenuous for you to say yes, given that you've stated and restated the same position a few different ways now.

Yes, you are completely misconstruing and misrepresenting what I have said. Especially if you actually believe I said that skier retention is down because instructors have failed to come up with more magic moves????

There are two separate subjects here.

The first, and I apologize for being repetitive, is the subject of magic moves in sports. My experience was in golf. I applied a magic move from an instructional pamphlet and it immediately and consistently improved my game. I asked in the OP if such moves might exist in skiing, and if they do, how and when would they be applied and what form would they take. Anything more than that is in your imagination. I have not once stated that there is a magic move for skiing. If anyone is upset over that, I don’t know how to respond.

The second issue is that of skier retention, which I brought up to counter the statement that skiing is an easy sport for any athletic adult. So yes, I belive that four out of five new skiers not returning is a failure for the skiing industry. And whilst I belive that that most of those new participants simply discover that they don’t enjoy skiing, that the current form of ski schools and instruction should also own proportion of that statistic. Now, I understand that this opinion holds some controversy, and may even cause consternation amongst the instructors here, but it is a valid position to hold. If you want to get defensive over that, I understand. Accusations of trolling and axe grinding aside, I am happy to debate this further in a new thread, should anyone wish to.