The "Magic Move" of Skiing ?

[Brian Finch]

Yes- turning up the hill, whilst the torso faces the bar at the bottom.

 

[JESinstr]

This resonates with me more than anything I've read here, but I'll add tipping the new inside ski to this if you allow. It's hard to not do what you say above when tipping the inside ski, to me it feels automatic. But I'm just a taker of lessons, not a giver, so I could be wrong. It might not be that applicable to the true beginner in a wedge, but it seems to me to apply to almost everyone else. But then I interpret the OP as talking about a move that helps the beginner and intermediate skier aspire to the higher levels. Once you are there, the move probably is different.

I don't understand the bashing of instructors, most of mine have been genuine committed teachers of the sport and have helped me immensely.

Thanks for the kind words.

Regarding your comments on tipping of the new inside ski. Why does that have to be singled out? Our legs naturally want to be parallel and vertically, they should be working in concert (again just like pedalling a bicycle). It's when they are not, that we start inventing stuff like "pinkie leads the way" and "tip the inside ski" etc. Although well intentioned, these activities tend to take the focus off of establishing the outside ski for success of the upcoming turn.

IMO learning to soften then shorten the inside leg is the best way to free up the ski in order to rotate and work in concert with the outside ski on the building of edge angles. This is something that can be instilled in beginners right from the get go and is especially important for those in a wedge. For more advanced skiers, when you exit the fall line and the slope reverses, active shortening of the inside leg places the ski in position to significantly support turn completion and follow on transition. .

"Edging happens as a result of the inside leg getting shorter" (JF Beaulieu)

 

[4ster]

Edging happens as a result of the inside leg getting shorter" (JF Beaulieu)

& from my POV, edging happens as a result of angulation & inclination although shortening the inside leg will certainly be a part of that. For some it may even be the magic wand, yet for others the pinkie toe or one of a dozen other possible triggers may say abracadabra .

 

[François Pugh]

The real magic is hard work. You can ski for years, just dawdling along without getting any better, or you can push yourself hard to make tighter higher g-force turns. When you push yourself hard, you run into your limitations and need to figure out how to fix them to make progress. When you just dawdle along you don't even know there is anything that needs improving.

 

[mdf]

they should be working in concert...

That is the goal, but most people can't just jump to the final version. Many people are going to fail to synchronize at first...it is just too many things to do at once. And since the outside ski creates the majority of the turning force, it is way too easy to tip it first, leaving the inside ski in the way. It is much better to start with the inside ski, which automagaically causes the outside ski to follow.

One the basics are working, the skier can work on reducing the time lag and getting the skis synchronized. The lag starts pretty short because it is based on mechanics, not on thinking of thing A and then thinking of thing B.

I think wedge turners learning in a well constructed progression are beside the point. I'm thinking of people who have a well entrenched but deeply flawed parallel "turn" -- heel pushing or z-turns into a diagonal skid. A strong cue to defeat a strong habit.

 

[JESinstr]

That is the goal, but most people can't just jump to the final version. Many people are going to fail to synchronize at first...it is just too many things to do at once. And since the outside ski creates the majority of the turning force, it is way too easy to tip it first, leaving the inside ski in the way. It is much better to start with the inside ski, which automagaically causes the outside ski to follow.

One the basics are working, the skier can work on reducing the time lag and getting the skis synchronized. The lag starts pretty short because it is based on mechanics, not on thinking of thing A and then thinking of thing B.

I think wedge turners learning in a well constructed progression are beside the point. I'm thinking of people who have a well entrenched but deeply flawed parallel "turn" -- heel pushing or z-turns into a diagonal skid. A strong cue to defeat a strong habit.

Good points. We all know that breaking habits it much harder than building new ones. So OK, we agree that the goal is to get the legs working in concert.

What is a major reason that is keeping this from happening? Better yet, what is causing the disfunction in the first place? After all, if we begin a turn from a standing start the legs actually start off in concert .

So in the context of the inside ski, is it failure of the ski to edge or failure to rotate or both? . During transition, tipping definitely flattens the inside ski...but only for a brief period before it begins edging again. If rotary is the culprit then tipping will not give the optimum opportunity to fix the problem. IMO .

I just believe that softening then shortening the inside leg not only directs pressure to the outside ski but also frees the inside ski to maneuver in support of whatever the outside ski needs to be successful, be it edging and/or rotary.

 

[wutangclan]

My guess is that much of the appeal of so called magic moves (and silver bullets for that matter) comes from this.

At various points in a skier's progress there may be times when preparation - all the things they are doing correctly - meet opportunity in the form of some small addition/adjustment that will make a noticeable improvement.

Examples: in 1986 I had a single lesson where an instructor's suggestion on awareness of hand position virtually eliminated my up to that point frequent falls. The tip would not have been useful unless other aspects of my skiing - basic stance, co-ordination, edging, etc - had been ready. And, of course, it needed some ongoing focus to make it instinctive. (It worked so well that unfortunately I didn't feel the need to take another lesson until 2006...)

I don't think that it's just applicable to newbies. Skiers with a high level of performance may also benefit although typically the improvements become more incremental the more advanced the skier.

Yes, agreed. You are describing having a breakthrough, which can occur at any level of development. Let's say a task (the proverbial carved turn) requires proficiency in skills U, V, W, X, Y and Z for success. None are optional. If you spent months or years getting good at most of those skills, but success was achieved only when you tackled that last missing step, it's tempting to think of it as a "magic move", "silver bullet", etc. And it's even more tempting for other observers to think that this "magic bullet" lets one bypass the agony of hard work to overcome all the other conventional obstacles that are difficult for most people.

 

[jimtransition]

The real magic is hard work. You can ski for years, just dawdling along without getting any better, or you can push yourself hard to make tighter higher g-force turns. When you push yourself hard, you run into your limitations and need to figure out how to fix them to make progress. When you just dawdle along you don't even know there is anything that needs improving.

Yep, if it was as simple as one magical movement, surely everyone would be able to to stop trying once they got it. Unfortunately (and fortunately) skiing well isn't a destination, it's journey of constantly striving to be better (or just cruising to lunch/après if that's your thing).

 

[Kneale Brownson]

A concert pianist practices daily and even warms up at a keyboard backstage before performing.

 

[Fishbowl]

Yep, if it was as simple as one magical movement, surely everyone would be able to to stop trying once they got it. Unfortunately (and fortunately) skiing well isn't a destination, it's journey of constantly striving to be better.

When there is a culture, in fact an entire industry, built around the narrative that a sport is so complex that it can only be taught by experts and mastered through years of hard work, it is not surprising that any form of short cut would be met with resistance, and rejected by both students and instructors. So, the validity of a "magic move" cannot necessarily be supported by it's preponderance. Besides, who would want their hard earned superiority in a sport negated by a ten page mail order pamphlet?

Please note that the above is not my "proof" of the validity of a magic move. I am just saying that because we have traditionally learned a sport in one specific way, does not necessarily invalidate a different way.

The key question for me, is what is the difference between those who play these sports naturally, and those who have to constantly work at making those same movements feel natural. Perhaps magic moves enable us to short cut that gap in instinctual ability?

 

[geepers]

A concert pianist practices daily and even warms up at a keyboard backstage before performing.

I tried that. Music got better but it didn't help the skiing.

 

[geepers]

When there is a culture, in fact an entire industry, built around the narrative that a sport is so complex that it can only be taught by experts and mastered through years of hard work, it is not surprising that any form of short cut would be met with resistance, and rejected by both students and instructors. So, the validity of a "magic move" cannot necessarily be supported by it's preponderance. Besides, who would want their hard earned superiority in a sport negated by a ten page mail order pamphlet?

Please note that the above is not my "proof" of the validity of a magic move. I am just saying that because we have traditionally learned a sport in one specific way, does not necessarily invalidate a different way.

The key question for me, is what is the difference between those who play these sports naturally, and those who have to constantly work at making those same movements feel natural. Perhaps magic moves enable us to short cut that gap in instinctual ability?

In any field of physical skills based activities - from golf to playing a music instrument to skiing to flying an aircraft - participants will exhibit a spectrum of abilities. From grossly incompetent to incredible dexterity. No matter where on the spectrum of the abilities, some will be self-taught and some will have received extensive formal training - the possible exception being flying an aircraft as it's not an activity that typically rewards trial and error learning.

But whether self-taught or trained by others the one thing we can guarantee is that all participants who reach a high level of ability will have invested considerable time and effort to attaining that performance standard. No-one will have read a 10 page pamphlet and immediately begun to strike the ball like Jason Day, play the guitar like Tommy Emmanuel, ski bumps like Brit Cox or fly a Red Bull air course like Matt Hall. A few people with the basic talents and dedicated practice can reach their goals without the involvement other. But most aren't that dedicated, aren't prepared to sift through the available (and often contradictory) information, aren't as able to self-assess what they are doing right and wrong, aren't sure of the next step, aren't able to devote the time to the activity. That majority generally make better progress in some formal (or semi-formal) training where a knowledgeable practitioner guides the way.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

And let's not forget .... the learning is REALLY fun!

 

[wutangclan]

When there is a culture, in fact an entire industry, built around the narrative that a sport is so complex that it can only be taught by experts and mastered through years of hard work ...

Now, now ... let's be clear: pretty much anyone with a basic level of fitness can ski at an intermediate ability, i.e. relaxed, skidded turns on hero-snow groomers. In that sense, skiing is an incredibly easy sport, and most of the industry caters to this segment of the market. Nobody with familiarity with how modern, guest-focused lessons are taught could reasonably claim that the "entire industry is built around the narrative that a sport is so complex ...". Indeed it would be suicidal in a business that is already in decline thanks to long-term economic and demographic trends.

But if you want to venture into advanced/expert territory, i.e. do better than most other people at whatever tickles your fancy (carved turns, zipperline moguls, gnarly freeskiing, wicked park tricks), well then by definition you need to either possess more talent or expend more effort, or both. In part, it's because "advanced" skiing keeps getting redefined. Technology and methodology keeps raising the bar on what the average person can easily accomplish, and the best athletes keep pushing the boundaries of what is humanly achievable. Is there any human pastime that isn't like that?

 

[Fishbowl]

Now, now ... let's be clear: pretty much anyone with a basic level of fitness can ski at an intermediate ability, i.e. relaxed, skidded turns on hero-snow groomers. In that sense, skiing is an incredibly easy sport, and most of the industry caters to this segment of the market. Nobody with familiarity with how modern, guest-focused lessons are taught could reasonably claim that the "entire industry is built around the narrative that a sport is so complex ...". Indeed it would be suicidal in a business that is already in decline thanks to long-term economic and demographic trends.

But if you want to venture into advanced/expert territory, i.e. do better than most other people at whatever tickles your fancy (carved turns, zipperline moguls, gnarly freeskiing, wicked park tricks), well then by definition you need to either possess more talent or expend more effort, or both. In part, it's because "advanced" skiing keeps getting redefined. Technology and methodology keeps raising the bar on what the average person can easily accomplish, and the best athletes keep pushing the boundaries of what is humanly achievable. Is there any human pastime that isn't like that?

Obviously other factors are involved, but statistically 83% of first time skiers never come back to the slopes for a second visit. That kind of return is not indicative of “an incredibabky easy sport that anyone with a basic level of fitness can ski at an intermediate level”. And if “most of the industry is catering to this market”, they are failing miserably.

Clearly there are many dedicated ski instructors helping skiers of all levels improve, but there is also an obvious issue with skier retention. Part of that issue is the difficulty most people find in learning how to ski well enough that they can find some level of satisfaction in the sport.

 

[jimtransition]

When there is a culture, in fact an entire industry, built around the narrative that a sport is so complex that it can only be taught by experts and mastered through years of hard work, it is not surprising that any form of short cut would be met with resistance, and rejected by both students and instructors. So, the validity of a "magic move" cannot necessarily be supported by it's preponderance. Besides, who would want their hard earned superiority in a sport negated by a ten page mail order pamphlet?

Please note that the above is not my "proof" of the validity of a magic move. I am just saying that because we have traditionally learned a sport in one specific way, does not necessarily invalidate a different way.

The key question for me, is what is the difference between those who play these sports naturally, and those who have to constantly work at making those same movements feel natural. Perhaps magic moves enable us to short cut that gap in instinctual ability?

That sounds a little conspiracy theory-esque to me, for sure if I stumbled across one thing that instantly made all my clients experts I would be marketing it, not keeping it quiet for the good of the industry.

Your question brings up another debate, as to whether anyone really skis 'naturally'. A lot of people would say that natural talent as a concept is overstated, and in fact good old fashioned hard work is the key to mastering any sport. Maybe check out the book 'Talent code'.

Personally I believe that some people are born with genes that do naturally predispose them to certain sports, and if people have a lot of transferrable skills they will pick up skiing fast, but really working hard, combined with good guidance and peers is what will make you an expert.

 

[JESinstr]

Your question brings up another debate, as to whether anyone really skis 'naturally'. A lot of people would say that natural talent as a concept is overstated, and in fact good old fashioned hard work is the key to mastering any sport. Maybe check out the book 'Talent code'.

Actually most people do ski naturally. Gravity pulls them down the hill and their "Natural" reaction to the increasing speed is to get their skis perpendicular to that force ... sometimes at all costs!. It is the only "Natural" reaction they have to the fear that uncontrolled speed and destruction of balance brings .

That being said, your screen name carries a clue. What modern ski technology brings to the party is the ability to convert the straight line pull of gravity into circular, centripetal based travel.

One of the keys to this conversion is the ability to smoothly and progressively transition from one force to the other. For some, that ability is innate. For others, not so much.

 

[wutangclan]

Obviously other factors are involved, but statistically 83% of first time skiers never come back to the slopes for a second visit. That kind of return is not indicative of “an incredibabky easy sport that anyone with a basic level of fitness can ski at an intermediate level”. And if “most of the industry is catering to this market”, they are failing miserably.

Sir, I refer you to this chart of reasons why those 83% of first-time skiers fail to find our religion:

Anecdotally, it matches up with the reasons given by my non-skiing friends and acquaintances. By and large it’s because of logistics, priorities, time and money. Oh and one more not mentioned in the chart: f***ing painful ski boots!

The only factors that, as an instructor, I find relevant to me and are within my sphere of influence, are:
- 11% - "Frustrated by lack of accomplishment/progress"
- 10% - "Did not enjoy the sport"
While we should strive to drive those numbers to zero, I'd say that they're pretty good guest satisfaction figures. I challenge you to find other sports/industries significantly better than that.

I don't want to derail this thread with another discussion of why the ski industry is declining, except to assert that it isn't caused by the lack of "magic moves" for skill improvement.

 

[Fishbowl]

Sir, I refer you to this chart of reasons why those 83% of first-time skiers fail to find our religion:

Anecdotally, it matches up with the reasons given by my non-skiing friends and acquaintances. By and large it’s because of logistics, priorities, time and money. Oh and one more not mentioned in the chart: f***ing painful ski boots!

The only factors that, as an instructor, I find relevant to me and are within my sphere of influence, are:
- 11% - "Frustrated by lack of accomplishment/progress"
- 10% - "Did not enjoy the sport"
While we should strive to drive those numbers to zero, I'd say that they're pretty good guest satisfaction figures. I challenge you to find other sports/industries significantly better than that.

I don't want to derail this thread with another discussion of why the ski industry is declining, except to assert that it isn't caused by the lack of "magic moves" for skill improvement.

If those first time time participants found skiing to be easy and enjoyed their time on the slopes, all those objections in your chart would raised. The reality is that they had a miserable time, and looked for reasons not to come back.

 

[fatbob]

Yeah I don't buy the survey results either - if let's say 50% were experiencing the most magical feeling ever then they would't be listing logistics as an objection. I bet "harder than it looked" might score highly though in a truthful story. What it really means is the experience wasn't enough fun to be worth the cost/time/hassle factors.