The "Magic Move" of Skiing ?

[Wendy]

If their any school teachers that are part of this community you should recognize these visual, auditory, read-write, and kinesthetic. The visual learner can watch a ski instructor, a video, or even someone on the hill and pick up a skill. The auditory learner can listen to instructions and just do what they are told. The read-write learner can read about how to preform a skill and learn how to do it. Last but not least is the kinesthetic learner that is the hands on individual that has to physically do something to learn a skill. Now this is what I feel many skiers are and why some other people have difficulty learning to ski. Many of us are a combination of two of these four so you could have both styles but one will be your dominate learning style.

Actually, this theory has fallen apart after more research has been done. As you correctly state, many of us are a combination of styles....but it’s more complex than that. It depends more on what’s being taught and the skill of the instructor.

 

[Uncle-A]

Learning styles has been debunked for awhile now. I loath guided discovery for adults because it creates an artificial divide between those who have knowledge and those who seek it. It's condecending and rhetorical IMHO. When training staff, I most certainly let them know that people should know exactly what we're trying to 'discover' and why we're bothering to begin with. It then becomes an obtainable, concise goal with a clear outcome. But anyhow...

Learning styles theory is alive and well in the classrooms, lesson plans are designed around different learning styles. I am not sure why someone would think teachers that are educated to do a job would be creating an artificial divide between themselves and their students. I have witnessed just the opposite of teachers going out of their way to bond with their students. What I have also witnessed is an elitist attitude of many ski instructors. But I feel we have thread drift from the original idea of the OP. This is not a community of teachers it is community of skiers so I will try not to go on about this.

 

[markojp]

I am not sure why someone would think teachers that are educated to do a job would be creating an artificial divide between themselves and their students. I have witnessed just the opposite of teachers going out of their way to bond with their students.

I think we're thread drifting past each other. I've taught both secondary and post secondary as well as skiing. Good teaching and good teachers are amazing. I have also witnessed the vast majority of people I know in the teaching field go out of their way to bond with students. My beef was specifially with guided discovery for adults specifially in regards to skiing. In my experience, it's an exception rather than the norm, but it's such a notably bad exception that I mentioned it. I'm all for the 'Ah-Ha!!!!' moment. It can be reached many ways, but IMHexperience, guided discovery in skiing creates confusion, frustration, etc... because it is incredibly easy to misuse. Many who do are driven by "I AM THE guru...." egotism (or conversely, 'what the heck am I going to do?') rather than finding what is the most useful way to help their clients ski more effectively. What, why, where, when... if an instructor can't answer those four regarding the class they're leading after a couple of warmup/evaluation/MA runs, there's going to be some not very good teaching going on. YMMV and there's no problem with that.

 

[Steve]

As I've said before on epic, I think it really is "knowledge acquisition" styles. We gain information and knowledge differently. How we "learn" is another thing. In my opinion we all truly learn skiing the same way. Kinesthetically, by doing it. We somehow make all those complex and subtle movements that bit by bit give us the feeling. From the moment we feel what carving a ski feels like on we can thus search for it again. We learned it, we felt it.

I have understood more about skiing than most people for years, but only in the last 2-3 years did I really learn how to ski expertly (at times!)

All the knowledge in the world was worth a hill of beans, because I still couldn't do it.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

If their any school teachers that are part of this community you should recognize these visual, auditory, read-write, and kinesthetic. The visual learner can watch a ski instructor, a video, or even someone on the hill and pick up a skill. The auditory learner can listen to instructions and just do what they are told. The read-write learner can read about how to preform a skill and learn how to do it. Last but not least is the kinesthetic learner that is the hands on individual that has to physically do something to learn a skill. Now this is what I feel many skiers are and why some other people have difficulty learning to ski. Many of us are a combination of two of these four so you could have both styles but one will be your dominate learning style.

I taught middle school theater for 30 years and while I agree that everyone has a dominant learning style, I disagree with your application of this to skiing or any kinesthetic skill. I am VERY dominant in the read-write learning style and because of that I struggle to learn kinesthetic skills. I can't read about how to dance and then get up and dance. I can't expect my students to listen to me explain a dance step and then get up and dance well - even if they are auditory learners. Kinesthetic skills are a whole different ball game when it comes to learning. As for guided discovery - it's awesome when we are developing critical thinking. To a struggling athlete, it's just frustrating.

 

[geepers]

Hmmm... maybe some terminology definition would be handy.

Magic Move - a movement (or concept) that is universally applicable to all participants.
Silver Bullet - a movement (or concept) that is specific to an individual participant.

In skiing I suspect that a Magic Move is either a species of unicorn or a type of ToE. Whereas there are probably a great many Silver Bullets, large and small. Been hit by a few myself.

Not sure about Magic Bullets or Silver Moves....

On learning styles - always felt that one of the big advantages in considering learning styles (whether they be VAK or Watcher/Feeler/Thinker/Doer or whatever) is that they make the point to the trainer that not everyone learns the same way the trainer does.

 

[Wendy]

@markojp Guided discovery in skiing? I can’t even imagine how that works.

Guided discovery in my chemistry classroom never worked very well...too abstract and complex of a subject. Students need clearly articulated goals. Same as skiing!

 

[markojp]

@markojp Guided discovery in skiing? I can’t even imagine how that works.

It doesn't.

 

[Uncle-A]

So true If you are smiling at the end of the run it was a good run. For recreational skiers we make to much of the details so unless you are a racer, skiing should put a smile on your face.

What was I typing TOO not TO thanks for not jumping on me for that.

 

[Uncle-A]

I taught middle school theater for 30 years and while I agree that everyone has a dominant learning style, I disagree with your application of this to skiing or any kinesthetic skill. I am VERY dominant in the read-write learning style and because of that I struggle to learn kinesthetic skills. I can't read about how to dance and then get up and dance. I can't expect my students to listen to me explain a dance step and then get up and dance well - even if they are auditory learners. Kinesthetic skills are a whole different ball game when it comes to learning. As for guided discovery - it's awesome when we are developing critical thinking. To a struggling athlete, it's just frustrating.

Skiing is still a sport and to those of us (myself included) that were never top athletes in any other sport it is going to difficult to be an expert skier because natural athletic ability is required. So reading about Pinkie Leads the Way has not helped you? I would think all of the reading here should have given you a leg up on the movements to make you a better skier. My learning style tends to be Kinesthetic so I have to actually be on the slope and that tends to limit my learning time.

 

[JESinstr]

Skiing is still a sport and to those of us (myself included) that were never top athletes in any other sport it is going to difficult to be an expert skier because natural athletic ability is required. So reading about Pinkie Leads the Way has not helped you? I would think all of the reading here should have given you a leg up on the movements to make you a better skier. My learning style tends to be Kinesthetic so I have to actually be on the slope and that tends to limit my learning time.

Don't sell yourself so short.

There is a ton of great knowledge being disseminated here. BUT, participants need to have a fundamental understanding of underlying forces that dictate the mechanics. It ain't all about youth and physical ability. At 68, I am skiing athletically worse but technically better than ever . And a lot of the credit goes to many who participate in these forums and produce videos on YouTube. But like many things, without a "workings" knowledge base, it's LET THE BUYER BEWARE!

Example:
While "Pinkie leads the way" might help some, it is no way a fundamental movement pattern. For a more advanced skier moving at speed, it may be a helpful tip but at the beginner level this is a major miscue IMO.

The reason is that skiing not only requires us to dynamically balance on a moving platform, it requires we dynamically balance against two competing forces, Gravity and Centripetal. The former is constant, ever present and the default, the latter is developed and rises and falls due a combination of skier actions and variables.

At the advanced level, Leading with the pinkie toe may help with timely participation of the inside. It helps the inside "clear the way" and better positions the skier to handle the soon to come centripetal force being rapidly generated by the primary outside ski.

Telling a skier at the beginner level (who is in a wedge configuration) to have their "pinkie lead the way" will move their mass to the inside because (at the time) they are relying on gravity for balance and there is little centripetal force in play. This flies in the face of PSIA fundamental #2 "Direct pressure towards the outside ski".

If we can agree that the real problem we are trying to solve is getting the inside to clear and participate in the turning process we need a solution (a movement pattern) that works with the beginner as well as the advanced skier.

Looking at it from that angle you might want to consider that the fundamental movement pattern is not so much leading with one's pinkie toe but a softening, then shortening of the inside leg.

For the beginner doing this under gravity, it starts the flattening process of the inside ski and automatically moves the COM towards the outside ski. For the Advanced skier, the shortening process helps keep the legs parallel (what leading the pinkie is trying to do) and in sync with one another other just like a bicycle and properly begins a movement pattern that becomes more active and important as the turn heads to the completion phase.

 

[Doby Man]

Extension, flexion, angulation, inclination and rotation are the five basic fundamental motor patterns we/I use to balance over a turning ski and thus managing the CoM to BoS relationship over a moving platform. To me it is the most universally cogent list there is. Just about all secondary motor patterns can be found under these primary movements. These five patterns are also fundamental to field and court disciplines such as soccer, basketball, football, hockey, tennis, etc. Anyone who may have athletically mastered a similar sport and, by extension, these movements, at an earlier stage in life have a skill set to incorporate into there skiing as soon as they hit the intermediate level if not earlier. Adult learners can come with a hidden wealth of “sleeper skills” that good instructing has a way of bringing out.

 

[David Chaus]

It’s not like there is THE magic move. There might be a magic move for a particular individual, at that particular time in those particular circumstances. Not even a “move” per se, but a change in how the individual is moving.

The skill is in being able to discern what is the most useful change to make. In which case, the real skill for an instructor is the capacity to see, understand and share what they see, and offer one good solution for that moment, one insightful change in movements. In other words, MA is the magic.

Or rather, MA done well is like magic. Done poorly is abusive. Must use this power for good.......

 

[Carl Kuck]

Short answer: Nope. Had a clinic with Ron Kipp recently and the subject was "There is no one move, it's all about versatility."

 

[wutangclan]

I would say that the "magic move" isn't so much a specific move, but rather dedication to training and practice, going through iterative cycles of movement analysis, correction and reinforcement under the supervision of a coach/instructor.

Most recreational skiers are time constrained with work and family obligations getting in the way of ski improvement. Many don't take lessons. The ones that do don't have time in between lessons to practice what they were taught. Any improvement will be minor, won't stick, and it's back to square one next winter. Even the ones who have more time to ski, mainly your childless 20/30-somethings, aren't really interested in working on ski improvement. If they do take lessons, they don't keep working on their skills ... they mainly bomb it and have fun. But who could blame them? You have to be really dedicated (or anal) to do drills when it's a powder day, and even more dedicated to go up the hill when it's not. So of course they're hoping for the magic bullet that works within the 5 hours per week that they spend on snow.

I've seen lots of very "successful" instructors prescribe "magic moves" to their clientele, who lap it up just as enthusiastically as they do their homeopathic remedies, automotive fuel additives and single-function kitchen gadgets. It's all BS, but kudos to these instructors, they have to make a living, so I am not gonna fault them too much for telling the customer what they want to hear. At the end of the day, the customer goes home happy, thinking they're a better skier because they are performing stupid-human-trick #542 and the instructor goes home happy, able to pay for rent or beers (but not both).

For real improvement after picking the low-hanging fruit of newbie gains, focused training is the only way, even if you chose the right parents with names like Cochran, Shiffrin or Thovex.

 

[kayco53]

Somebody told me before a ski test to look down the slope, pick out a point and ski towards it. Meaning to me body position. As well as flexing all your joints. He described as a calm upper body and everything from the hips down moving. Hope I said it right. Guy is a awesome super smooth skier on any terrain regardless of snow conditions.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

Skiing is still a sport and to those of us (myself included) that were never top athletes in any other sport it is going to difficult to be an expert skier because natural athletic ability is required. So reading about Pinkie Leads the Way has not helped you? I would think all of the reading here should have given you a leg up on the movements to make you a better skier. My learning style tends to be Kinesthetic so I have to actually be on the slope and that tends to limit my learning time.

Actually - no. I won't go into detail, but my brain immediately wonders what that means. What am I supposed to do with the pinky toe? This is just an example; please don't explain the pinky toe to me because I actually know the answer. My point is that writing that is meaningless without an on snow demonstration. I need two things to learn kinesthetic skills: someone to demonstrate and then lots of practice. I am a very slow learner, but I am persistent.

 

[Marker]

If we can agree that the real problem we are trying to solve is getting the inside to clear and participate in the turning process we need a solution (a movement pattern) that works with the beginner as well as the advanced skier.

Looking at it from that angle you might want to consider that the fundamental movement pattern is not so much leading with one's pinkie toe but a softening, then shortening of the inside leg.

For the beginner doing this under gravity, it starts the flattening process of the inside ski and automatically moves the COM towards the outside ski. For the Advanced skier, the shortening process helps keep the legs parallel (what leading the pinkie is trying to do) and in sync with one another other just like a bicycle and properly begins a movement pattern that becomes more active and important as the turn heads to the completion phase.

This resonates with me more than anything I've read here, but I'll add tipping the new inside ski to this if you allow. It's hard to not do what you say above when tipping the inside ski, to me it feels automatic. But I'm just a taker of lessons, not a giver, so I could be wrong. It might not be that applicable to the true beginner in a wedge, but it seems to me to apply to almost everyone else. But then I interpret the OP as talking about a move that helps the beginner and intermediate skier aspire to the higher levels. Once you are there, the move probably is different.

I don't understand the bashing of instructors, most of mine have been genuine committed teachers of the sport and have helped me immensely.

 

[fatbob]

My silver bullets are

Early on edge
Cross under not over
Point the inside knee

Situation specific

Chicken wings
Reach downhill

 

[geepers]

...after picking the low-hanging fruit of newbie gains...

My guess is that much of the appeal of so called magic moves (and silver bullets for that matter) comes from this.

At various points in a skier's progress there may be times when preparation - all the things they are doing correctly - meet opportunity in the form of some small addition/adjustment that will make a noticeable improvement.

Examples: in 1986 I had a single lesson where an instructor's suggestion on awareness of hand position virtually eliminated my up to that point frequent falls. The tip would not have been useful unless other aspects of my skiing - basic stance, co-ordination, edging, etc - had been ready. And, of course, it needed some ongoing focus to make it instinctive. (It worked so well that unfortunately I didn't feel the need to take another lesson until 2006...)

I don't think that it's just applicable to newbies. Skiers with a high level of performance may also benefit although typically the improvements become more incremental the more advanced the skier.