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Uncle-A

In the words of Paul Simon "You can call me Al"
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The magic move - check if the corners of your mouth turn up at the end of a run. Anything beyond that is just details.
So true If you are smiling at the end of the run it was a good run. For recreational skiers we make to much of the details so unless you are a racer, skiing should put a smile on your face.:)
 

Uke

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Long ago in a far away land I used the signature 'My job is putting smiles on peoples faces.'. Strangely enough, I actually caught some flak for that.

uke
 

wallyk

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When I instruct people what I think is the "magic" movement is different for each student depending upon what they can do at that moment in time. There is no one thing, it's very personal and a continuum of developmental advances.

Aside of the posting that one instructor made here about how he still "sucks" at skiing, this is one of the more candid aspects of skiing coming from an instructor that I've read. I find that a certain percentage of the skiing "tips" which are posted from instructors are humorously technical and border on the ridiculous. After reading different threads it's obvious that adding layers of technical analysis is the current paradigm of the professional instructor community.

BUT Pugski is community of skiers of all ability levels. Perhaps someone reading this thread will gain some personal or professional insight from the comments. Maybe even the concept of "dorsiflexion" or that light/backhoe analogy resinates on either a personal or professional level.
 

markojp

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Wally , what I think you're missing is simple. How one communicates among a group of peers about a particular subject is generally very different than how one might talk about the same topic during a lesson or clinic. When instructors start talking to each other, yes, sometimes things go tech. That's what often happens. Case in point, my kid and I were watching a really cool program about quantum biology last night. It introduced concepts and thought in laypersons' terms. We dug it, but I'm sure we'd have been scratching our heads if we attended their professional conference.

When skiing with @Zentune this past season, on the hill I don't think either of us went into the weeds much on ski talk, but did discuss how too much talk 'from above' on the hill just isn't much fun. We pretty much just skied and had a rippin good time even though we both enjoy geeking out on tech talk.

Good conversations, instruction, etc... are evidenced by smile and commensurate mental/ physical engagement. Droning on, rhetorical questioning, and 'my way or else' linguistic gymnastics are generally met with yawns, eyes on the snow, and much weight supported on ski poles. Good is good, and bad is bad. There's always wheat and chafe in the world.
 
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Zentune

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What Markojp said! Peer to peer talk on the forum is much different...I never get techy with students, unless they are nerdy and specifically ask for it, which has happened a time or 2.

zenny
 

wallyk

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All good comments.......and a lot can get lost in translation. Clearly there is a lot of technical talk here among instructors as I assume that this segment of the population is trying to communicate what works while simultaneously building a specialized knowledge about how to help people. Professional knowledge communication.

I've written many times and believe that there is no right way to enjoy skiing. Probably no one teaching method as well. I assume that many a beers have been consumed discussing these topics. :beercheer:

My "magic moment" came at Mt Snow in the mid-1990's, was taking a break from college, when I watched people from one of those lifts on the NorthFace, or whatever they call it, working their feet back and forth. You could see the action from the lift and it was so clear. That was the point where I realized that I had to work and weight my downhill ski more aggressively. Total game changer. Took my skiing to the next level.
 

Uncle-A

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When I instruct people what I think is the "magic" movement is different for each student depending upon what they can do at that moment in time. There is no one thing, it's very personal and a continuum of developmental advances.
This sounds like what teachers call the discovery method or what many call the AH-HA moment. That one point in time when the light bulb goes on and the student "gets it".
 

Dave Marshak

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...I never get techy with students, unless they are nerdy and specifically ask for it, which has happened a time or 2.

zenny
And even then, only enough to get them to move on to real learning.

dm
 

markojp

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This sounds like what teachers call the discovery method or what many call the AH-HA moment. That one point in time when the light bulb goes on and the student "gets it".

I wouldn't necessarily condemn it to the dust bin of adult learning 'guided discovery'.... (yes, I loath g.d... rhetorical zen b.s used to paint the 'giver' as mystical guru. It just sucks trying to figure out what to discover, but I digress, and it's only like my opinion man. ) It's more about the instructor figuring out what someone responds to ... could be language, could be a great, clean demo, could be just getting someone to relax enough to not worry about someone looking at their skiing.
 

ToddW

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If there were indeed a magic move for skiing, someone would surely have publicized it in a book or video with a title like “Anyone can be an Expert Skier.”
 

4ster

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"What is the Magic move in skiing?" It is still angulation, same as it was in the days of Hannes Schnieder, Stien Erikson, JC Killy, Shane McConkey & Mikaela Shiffrin. Others may call it tipping and describe the finer points as counteracting & counterbalancing but in my mind/reality it is all angulation and always has been. Learning to angulate and de-angulate as a means to increase, decrease, engage & release edges is the move to own for advanced skiing. If I am going to pick one magic move, angulation is it.
KT4C3100.jpg
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If pointing your pinky toe is what ignites the magic wand, so be it ;)
 
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Uncle-A

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I wouldn't necessarily condemn it to the dust bin of adult learning 'guided discovery'.... (yes, I loath g.d... rhetorical zen b.s used to paint the 'giver' as mystical guru. It just sucks trying to figure out what to discover, but I digress, and it's only like my opinion man. ) It's more about the instructor figuring out what someone responds to ... could be language, could be a great, clean demo, could be just getting someone to relax enough to not worry about someone looking at their skiing.
Now you are talking about learning theory and it is true that some people learn in different ways than other people. The discovery method does not work for you and I understand that but it has nothing to do with mystical anything. Teachers talk about four learning styles of students, I think skiing is such a physical activity that the trial and error by the skier lead up to discovery. Keeping with the drift of the thread "The Magic Move" the moment of discovery seems to fit.
 

KingGrump

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If there were indeed a magic move for skiing, someone would surely have publicized it in a book or video with a title like “Anyone can be an Expert Skier.”

I see you landed the marketing position with Harold. :cool:
 

Jim McDonald

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"It's more about the instructor figuring out what someone responds to"

In a nutshell! Having wasted time & money on one-time lessons, I will only sign up for multi-day clinics with the same instructor, as I've realized it can take a day or two for the instructor to figure out how I learn and how he/she can best get me where I want to go.
(Of course, this may well be due to me being a particularly difficult student rather than any failure on the part of past instructors :()
 

Steve

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This sounds like what teachers call the discovery method or what many call the AH-HA moment. That one point in time when the light bulb goes on and the student "gets it".

Well I wouldn't call it discovery, I just mean that our job as instructors is to look at our student(s) and determine what is the one (or two at most) things that would help them develop the most at their current skill level - and then to try to teach them that. The method of teaching is another thing.

So for one student the "magic" movement at that point in time may likely involve fore-aft balance, and a focus to help them better that.
Or it may be lateral balance, or it may be inside ski management.
 

Uncle-A

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Well I wouldn't call it discovery, I just mean that our job as instructors is to look at our student(s) and determine what is the one (or two at most) things that would help them develop the most at their current skill level - and then to try to teach them that. The method of teaching is another thing.

So for one student the "magic" movement at that point in time may likely involve fore-aft balance, and a focus to help them better that.
Or it may be lateral balance, or it may be inside ski management.
You are providing your student with the steps to learn that skill. I agree the skill may be different for each skier but there will be that moment when all the steps you teach come together and the skier gets it. I think that is why some say that there is more than one magic move.
 

Uncle-A

In the words of Paul Simon "You can call me Al"
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If their any school teachers that are part of this community you should recognize these visual, auditory, read-write, and kinesthetic. The visual learner can watch a ski instructor, a video, or even someone on the hill and pick up a skill. The auditory learner can listen to instructions and just do what they are told. The read-write learner can read about how to preform a skill and learn how to do it. Last but not least is the kinesthetic learner that is the hands on individual that has to physically do something to learn a skill. Now this is what I feel many skiers are and why some other people have difficulty learning to ski. Many of us are a combination of two of these four so you could have both styles but one will be your dominate learning style.
 
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markojp

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Now you are talking about learning theory and it is true that some people learn in different ways than other people. The discovery method does not work for you and I understand that but it has nothing to do with mystical anything. Teachers talk about four learning styles of students.....

Learning styles has been debunked for awhile now. I loath guided discovery for adults because it creates an artificial divide between those who have knowledge and those who seek it. It's condecending and rhetorical IMHO. When training staff, I most certainly let them know that people should know exactly what we're trying to 'discover' and why we're bothering to begin with. It then becomes an obtainable, concise goal with a clear outcome. But anyhow...
 
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4ster

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Learning styles has been debunked for awhile now. I loath guided discovery for adults because it creates an artificial divide between those who have knowledge and those who seek it. It's condecending and rhetorical IMHO. When training staff, I most certainly let them know that people should know exactly what we're trying to 'discover' and why we're bothering to begin with. It then becomes an obtainable, clear, concise goal with a palpable outcome. But anyhow...
Yup, tell it like it is! ...
"You are standing on your skis but to make a ski turn you need to balance against the outside ski and to do that you need to learn to angulate"

Although some studies have debunked learning styles, I believe there is still some validity in many situations. When blended with past learning experiences (reciprocal), the student/athlete can take greater ownership of the process.
 

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