Drill The Infinity Move

[WadeHoliday]

So, I've been thinking about this "trampoline" image... and working on my own skiing, but I'm having a disconnect.

That trampoline, I believe It's dynamic, exciting, athletic... but, what if my INTENT is slow/smooth/flowy/relaxed, not exciting, actually somewhat boring, flowing like "molasses" down the hill?
I have skied w/ Bud and Phil a bit, so they know my general skiing "style", and may be able to help my disconnect here...

Bob's thoughts on Intent:
"Intent Dictates Technique. Even when they "think" they want to develop the technique of great skiers, few skiers, outside of racers, operate with the offensive intent that is the pre-requisite of great technique. As you know, I've written a lot about "skiing the slow line fast" in the past. Note that it is not about "skiing fast"--it is about the desire to ski fast-ER, all the time, to gain speed when you release the edges and dive down the hill, to literally ski whatever line you choose to ski as fast as you possibly can. But "fast" and "slow" are states of mind, and the actual speeds involved will vary from skier to skier, and from turn to turn. The only way to "want to ski faster" all the time, of course, is to ski "too slowly" all the time. Whether it's you or me or a beginning skier going 2 mph or Lindsey Vonn going 90, the mindset (intent) must remain "how can I glide faster on this line?" The moment that changes, the technique of The Infinity Move goes out the window."

Bob, if I worked this trampoline idea/feeling more, and thought about exciting and energy in transition like that video with you and the trampoline, I know I'd be a better skier, but slow and mellow can be really fun too... I like to stay in the moment, right with my skis, not too far in the future or too dynamic, that is my intent,

I"m gonna go out on a limb here, and post some Wade skiing (as previously described". Bob, if this slow, old man turn is my preferred place for my skis to travel, and speed, how does the trampoline image (and infinity), help?

Any thoughts Bob, Bud... anyone.



Thx!

Wade

 

[Josh Matta]

I think you cna be slow and mellow and still ski a slow line fast using the infinity move.....

in that video above you could have skied a slower line even slower than what you were doing with less rotation happening while the skis are flat. You intent in that video may be glide and be smooth but there is rotary push off up the hill present in basically every single turn. If a the end of the turn you turned your feet even further up the hill and focused on the idea that Bob as posted about the infinity move combined with some inside foot tipping/inside leg flexing/inside leg unweighting you would have a far cleaner release and be able to go slower than what are you are even doing right now.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Probably should be a separate thread, Wade, but if you watch Bob's video, you see him moving forward, toward downhill. I see you moving UP, not toward the inside of the turn. Older folks CAN move offensively, in the infinitive mode, even if it's not vigorously, but it won't show the dynamicism of Bob's video. Terrain dictates much of the outcome.

 

[Josh Matta]

Quotes:
Now, for the masses: how does one accomplish this?

… moving out of my "terminal intermediate" status?

But so many lessons fail, simply because the instructor tries to teach offensive techniques to defensive skiers....

Getting to infinity.... how do we get a beginner or intermediate here?

My mind said NO. Just NO. …My brain was in self-preservation mode and didn't want my body to fall downhill.

Is there some kind of bullet point of things a skier should work on for this "feeling" to happen?
End Quotes.


My question is

What is the remedy, not in theory, but in practice, when face to face with a frustrated plateaued intermediate?

Judging by the glacial progress of many of my “Z” turning friends, most of whom have been unable to shake it over the course of many seasons, the remedial process for a defensive skier must be daunting, perhaps overwhelming. The remedial actions are what I would like to see written about here. For example, in a one-hour lesson, where does one start to eliminate the undesirable movements and replace them with the rudimentary beginnings of the “X” move / “Infinity”move?

And, after the first one-hour lesson, what is the next remedial focus?

McEl

the reality is it up to you to make the change. If you want to keep keep keeping up with you Z turning friends you will NEVER get past where you are not only after a 1 hour lesson, but heck probably would erase even many days of full day single person request private.

Learning to be offensive will require you to slow it down and get back to easy easy slopes. Not just for a lesson or a couple days but dozens of days of conscious effort. In the short term I fully expect you to be much slower than your worse friend, heck Id go so far to say that we have tons of new hack instructors here who Z turn in very straightline that I have issues keeping up with as they go 50 mph on groomers.

in the end though learning how to ski offensively will open up a world of possibilities about terrain, snow conditions, and speed range you have. the last of your worries will be your Z turning friends.

 

[dean_spirito]

@Bob Barnes I was wondering if you can help me out. I think of myself as a very aggressive skier. I also think that I accomplish the infinity move when I ski (certainly not with the grace and precision that you demonstrate). But I still feel like I'm doing something wrong. I can feel myself load up my skis with energy as I shape my turn. I can often feel myself explode into my next turn as I release my edges. And when I'm making short or medium radius turns, I can feel my center of mass moving straight down the fall line as my lower half moves side to side. But for whatever reason, I don't feel like I achieve the level of dynamism and angulation that you demonstrate. Any ideas? I would very much like my skiing to look more like your skiing.

Best,
Dean

 

[Erik Timmerman]

video?

 

[Josh Matta]

Dean you ski like a faster more aggressive wade. What you are doing is the same. You are just doing it faster.

 

[tromano]

Love this thread. This season I have spent a lot of time skiing the same run ( pork barrel to 119) probably a few hundred times. Just trying to ski it as fast and fluidly as I can. It's a run that always has some bumps. Some very flat grooomers, ungroomed crud, options for a couple small 5' drops and a high speed run out.

In the past I would struggle in bumps when I found a line that I didn't like and try to turn out of it with my feet. This would completely throw me off rhythm and hurt my feet a lot. One thing I have gotten a lot better at is when I get caught in a rut that I don't like is to exaggerate the movement punch my hand even further forward, absorb and let my feet just kind of flow out of whatever it is on their own with out trying to do too much.

Also found that moving my bindings up a cm or two really helped in making me quicker and more balanced.

Edit to add: another thing that I started feeling this season is moving my inside foot back early after transition, thus engaging the inside edge. I think having my inside ski more involved sets up my next transition. In the next turn I can pressure sooner, with less moving arround.

 

[slowrider]

One of my favorite drills on a easy groomer is carving on my inside ski. With each turn tighten my radius. The sensation of aligning your foot under your hip is thrilling.

 

[WadeHoliday]

Probably should be a separate thread, Wade, but if you watch Bob's video, you see him moving forward, toward downhill. I see you moving UP, not toward the inside of the turn. Older folks CAN move offensively, in the infinitive mode, even if it's not vigorously, but it won't show the dynamicism of Bob's video. Terrain dictates much of the outcome.

Probably should have been a new thread, I just like this idea, and I wanted to tag onto the trampoline idea. Should we move this post?

I've played with it, heard it a lot lately, and it just doesn't fit with how I want to feel, especially the terrain I ski almost all the time, so I"m working on that disconnect.

I wasn't looking for an MA really, so probably didn't need the video, but the idea of slow distinctively finished turns seems to run counter to the trampoline idea.

this clip was easy to find so i put it in there. I'll put a more recent clip for my idea of slow round turns, and how I can add this idea in to the slow skiing

besides thinking about infinity, thx for the thoughts on moving more down the hill, kneale, and for your thoughts, Josh.

Cheers,

 

[Josh Matta]

Wade I agree maybe trampoline is not the best way to put it. Even at the lowest speed level on the least steep terrain or slow on steep terrain like your video there can still be energy transfered from turn to turn while still doing a clean transition. We simply do not terrain that is covered that is that steep right now but I can demo a edge to edge transtion at super slow speeds and it for sure involves Foot Squirt ie infinity move Ie letting your feet get ahead of you for a split second.

 

[Read Blinn]

Foot Squirt ie infinity move Ie letting your feet get ahead of you for a split second.

This is the first time I've clearly understood the meaning of that term. Thx. Josh!

 

[WadeHoliday]

Wade I agree maybe trampoline is not the best way to put it. Even at the lowest speed level on the least steep terrain or slow on steep terrain like your video there can still be energy transfered from turn to turn while still doing a clean transition. We simply do not have terrain that is covered that is that steep right now but I can demo a edge to edge transtion at super slow speeds and it for sure involves Foot Squirt ie infinity move Ie letting your feet get ahead of you for a split second.

cool. thx,
I guess part of my question is less about the this infinity idea, and more about the trampoline idea, as it just tosses my mind for a loop.

once again, here's a clip where there might be a bit more energy, it's still starts somewhat steep then gets starts to fade, (not as steep as the last clip), and broken up snow, but different use of energy and tactics then steep hard bumps w/ cliff bands to work around. foot squirt, that's a new one for me, in this one, I still see myself staying mostly w/ my skis, but a bit more dynamic. you?

 

[David Chaus]

Hmmm.....you could benefit from more separation of upper and lower body. Your torso appears to follow your direction of travel all the time, rather than face more towards the fall line or 45* to the fall line.

 

[WadeHoliday]

Hmmm.....you could benefit from more separation of upper and lower body. Your torso appears to follow your direction of travel all the time, rather than face more towards the fall line or 45* to the fall line.

thx for your thoughts, David.
As I said, I am not looking for movement analysis necessarily, I would post that elsewhere.
I am playing w/ the topic of this thread, mainly trying to come to terms w/ Bob's trampoline image and if it has any value for me in what I enjoy about skiing. I am not trying to look like somebody else, I did that back when I taught skiing and jumped through the psia's hoops 20 years ago to get my gold pin. Now I ski for my sensations and enjoyment. I guess I'm barking up the wrong tree, I thought Bob would be able to help my disconnect on the tramp idea. Josh has a bit.

Cheers!
Wade

 

[markojp]

Wade, first off, you're skiing better than most of the general public, and by a good bit. The foot squirt thing... IMHO, it's easier find the sensation on a nice green/blue groomer working toward high performance carving than off piste. It will happen naturally (or with some coaching) as a means of pressure management to both contain and use the rebound ('impulse' in Canadian ski English) energy of the ski.

 

[David Chaus]

Yeah, I get it. The trampoline idea, the imagery at least, has a connotation of springing or jumping, so while I get the idea it doesn't always feel that way in mixed conditions for me, especially when I'm focusing on absorbing terrain. I do think the "trampoline energy" works more efficiently with separation of upper and lower, which is why I mentioned it.

I have a habit of losing my forward pressure during the transition. I received some feedback, and a tip or two from a clinician this last week. One idea I am playing with is to notice the pressure on the tongue of my inside boot during turns, whether it decreases, stays the same or increases. I'm playing with increasing pressure on the front of my inside boot (without changing the weight distribution from my outside ski). Not easy, for myself at least. This drill has been helpful to keep the connection throughout the whole turn, and really feel my legs moving in a wider arc than my torso, so it's been useful to play with the transition/cross-under/x-move/infinity move.

 

[WadeHoliday]

Wade, first off, you're skiing better than most of the general public, and by a good bit. The foot squirt thing... IMHO, it's easier find the sensation on a nice green/blue groomer working toward high performance carving than off piste. It will happen naturally (or with some coaching) as a means of pressure management to both contain and use the rebound ('impulse' in Canadian ski English) energy of the ski.

good thought, Mark.
I think that may be a big part of my disconnect, I don't ski groomer or blue/green runs, except as a way to get back to the lift...
I do have a couple run outs where I play w/ high angle carving, but even there, I don't love the feeling of rebound and I try to absorb it all. I guess that may be why I'm struggling w/ this image/idea, it is counter to my intent.

Also, thanks for the kudos. Not looking for them, as I know my skiing isn't top shelf or main stream. That said, I do like my skiing, but am continually working on making it better, for the sensations I love, anyway. I still get lessons, took 4 all day privates from a canadian level 4 trainer in whistler last year, so I'm not done growing...

Cheers,
Wade

 

[markojp]

Yeah, I get it. The trampoline idea, the imagery at least, has a connotation of springing or jumping, so while I get the idea it doesn't always feel that way in mixed conditions for me, especially when I'm focusing on absorbing terrain. I do think the "trampoline energy" works more efficiently with separation of upper and lower, which is why I mentioned it.

I have a habit of losing my forward pressure during the transition. I received some feedback, and a tip or two from a clinician this last week. One idea I am playing with is to notice the pressure on the tongue of my inside boot during turns, whether it decreases, stays the same or increases. I'm playing with increasing pressure on the front of my inside boot (without changing the weight distribution from my outside ski). Not easy, for myself at least. This drill has been helpful to keep the connection throughout the whole turn, and really feel my legs moving in a wider arc than my torso, so it's been useful to play with the transition/cross-under/x-move/infinity move.

David, while you want to maintain cuff contact, think of 'lateral' pressure at 10 and 2 in transistion rather than at 12. When you press the boot at 12 just before transition while trying to move forward, the ski will flatten and tail wash out making it commensurately hard/impossible to balance over the outside ski in transistion. You know the rest of the story.

 

[Josh Matta]

cool. thx,
I guess part of my question is less about the this infinity idea, and more about the trampoline idea, as it just tosses my mind for a loop.

once again, here's a clip where there might be a bit more energy, it's still starts somewhat steep then gets starts to fade, (not as steep as the last clip), and broken up snow, but different use of energy and tactics then steep hard bumps w/ cliff bands to work around. foot squirt, that's a new one for me, in this one, I still see myself staying mostly w/ my skis, but a bit more dynamic. you?

More dynamic yes, maybe slightly more edge to edge but there is still a rotary push off in this skiing. The reality is you are skiing great but it can be that much more efficient and maybe more fun, and more versatile to actually go edge to edge with out that push off up the hill and to the side. the idea of the infinity move is not about moving away from your skis, but its accepting the reality that to make a clean, round, edge to edge as carved as possible turn that the skis have to take a longer path than our body. If you do not let them take a longer path there will be a stem or push off of some sort every single time if you try to stay 'forward" the whole time.

Wade, first off, you're skiing better than most of the general public, and by a good bit. The foot squirt thing... IMHO, it's easier find the sensation on a nice green/blue groomer working toward high performance carving than off piste. It will happen naturally (or with some coaching) as a means of pressure management to both contain and use the rebound ('impulse' in Canadian ski English) energy of the ski.

IMO its way more important off piste. and can be felt even at easier dynamic levels.