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AmyPJ

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So, since I am starting to feel this floaty, fun, flingy, weightless feeling at the very beginning of the release of a turn/initiation into the new turn, does this mean that I am finally moving out of my "terminal intermediate" status? I feel like I am really starting to angule, riding those edges around (oh those Sambas, they can sure fly!) And I feel that edge-of-balance feeling fore/aft, where I keep my stance forward to stay over my skis. Because if I don't, I'll be riding those tails and skidding.

Lots of folks I know won't go out on a groomer day. Maybe they don't get this feeling? I think it's an absolute blast. The harmony is similar to that I get when I have a perfectly harmonious ride on my horse. Everything is in sync, smooth, soft, effortless. Perfect rhythm.
 

Tricia

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The INFINITY move goes on forever!!!! Thanks, Bob. I think this thread will be viewed frequently on my iPhone by clients.
I was thinking that I'd like to have seen this image when I was learning.
 

bbinder

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Ah yes -- elegant animation and description. Now, for the masses: how does one accomplish this?
 

Read Blinn

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Seems like a vertigo, overhead, top down view of rebound.. with the above being the front view of rebound. Both show different aspects of the motions and positions..

I think that's why the trampoline graphic makes more sense to me. It's more physical, less rational. (That's me.)
 
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Bob Barnes

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"Now, for the masses: how does one accomplish this?" Ah--that is the question, isn't it, BBinder? It's a life-long pursuit for many of us. Helping people discover and increase their skill at these turns is the art and science of great instructors everywhere.

All I'll say for now is that the first key is have the image of the Infinity Move in your mind from the start. Know that this is the flowing, gliding, continuous motion outcome we're striving for. Make sure that intent matches the technique. This is arguably the biggest missing link for most recreational skiers, at all skill levels, who think of their skis primarily as brakes and their turns primarily as a way to slow down, to "stop going this way," rather than to "go that way." The Infinity Move maximizes gliding, not braking--it is the embodiment of what the great French technician and author Georges Joubert called "glissement," which translates roughly as the desire to glide, to "ride a fast ski," to ski whatever line you choose to ski as fast as you can, while choosing that line deliberately to eliminate the need to control speed with your technique. The Infinity Move is all about offensive, not defensive, technique, managing speed through tactics rather than technique, keeping the skis going the direction they're pointing as much as possible, using the edges to hold the line, rather than to scrape off speed. It's what I call the Go! Factor, and it's missing in 90% of recreational skiers, at any level of skill. For most skiers, this type of skiing requires a paradigm shift at the most basic level of how they think about turning from the start.

Intent Dictates Technique. Even when they "think" they want to develop the technique of great skiers, few skiers, outside of racers, operate with the offensive intent that is the pre-requisite of great technique. As you know, I've written a lot about "skiing the slow line fast" in the past. Note that it is not about "skiing fast"--it is about the desire to ski fast-ER, all the time, to gain speed when you release the edges and dive down the hill, to literally ski whatever line you choose to ski as fast as you possibly can. But "fast" and "slow" are states of mind, and the actual speeds involved will vary from skier to skier, and from turn to turn. The only way to "want to ski faster" all the time, of course, is to ski "too slowly" all the time. Whether it's you or me or a beginning skier going 2 mph or Lindsey Vonn going 90, the mindset (intent) must remain "how can I glide faster on this line?" The moment that changes, the technique of The Infinity Move goes out the window.

I do not turn to control speed. I turn to eliminate the need to control speed.

---

Once the mindset, the intent, the basic paradigm of turning to control direction rather than speed, are ingrained, there are many ways to help skiers develop the techniques of great skiing. Progressions, terrain choice, tactics, focuses, teaching styles, and so on are the tools of the trade, and great instructors master these tools to great effect. But so many lessons fail, simply because the instructor tries to teach offensive techniques to defensive skiers....

Best regards,
Bob
 

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And when the mindset results in a successful run, wouldn't you say, Bob, the bodily sensation of the Infinity Move or the trampoline effect becomes ingrained in muscle memory? For me, it''s all physical sensation.
 
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markojp

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Getting to infinity.... how do we get a beginner or intermediate here? I was looking at this clip and thinking through the simplicity of the message and what could be taken way/modified/inprovised... thoughts?


And will say I love your clips, Bob!
 
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Dadskier

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LL

Can't stop watching this.
 

Monique

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I like the infinity video a lot. It maybe helps with something I'm working on, which is not having a "dead spot" in my turns, especially on long groomers or on steeps. I tend to traverse between turns rather than actively transitioning. The image of the feet and CoM crossing - and the fact that it is a point, not a line segment ;-) - I think that could help me get there. The trampoline picture "feels" more like what I want to feel, but the image helps me visualize what to do.
 

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Getting to infinity.... how do we get a beginner or intermediate here? I was looking at this clip and thinking through the simplicity of the message and what could be taken way/modified/inprovised... thoughts?


And will say I love your clips, Bob!

That metaphor works for me.
 
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Bob Barnes

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I like the infinity video a lot. It maybe helps with something I'm working on, which is not having a "dead spot" in my turns, especially on long groomers or on steeps. I tend to traverse between turns rather than actively transitioning. The image of the feet and CoM crossing - and the fact that it is a point, not a line segment ;-) - I think that could help me get there. The trampoline picture "feels" more like what I want to feel, but the image helps me visualize what to do.

Glad you like it, Monique, and it sounds like these clips are doing exactly what I want them to do--to help with both understanding and visualizing sensations of great turns. You're right, too--nothing ever stops moving in great turns!

It has occurred to me that one of the things that separates good skiers from hacks, and from most non-skiers as well, is the constant and intense awareness of both the location and the motion of their feet and their centers (the two paths highlighted in the Infinity Move clip). Without necessarily thinking about it, they always know where these things are relative to each other, and which way they're moving and how fast, and where they will be relative to each other in the future as well. They "see" the paths in their subconscious, and make subtle and continuous adjustments as needed to make sure they continue to go where they want them to go, and to cross where they need them to cross. It's an intuitive "sixth sense" of experts that I've found that many skiers almost entirely lack. But it's a skill that can be developed, and I hope that these animations will help to visualize it. It's something almost anyone can become aware of when they're skiing, if they simply allow themselves to focus on the two intersecting paths of feet and center as they ski (which requires shifting awareness away, perhaps, from rote, linear technical self-talk for at least a time).

As SBrown says, it's about "that funny feeling in your tummy"! It's about letting go, and knowing when to let go, feeling when everything is moving in the right direction and at the right speed so that letting go will result in landing again in perfect balance when the skis begin to carve the new turn. It's about will and touch and purpose, to steal from Weems Westfeldt's great concept of the Sports Diamond (Brilliant Skiing Every Day), while technique ("power" in the Diamond) plays the role of servant.

Besides the essential pre-requisite of offensive intent that I described earlier (which I believe encompasses will, touch, and purpose), another critical piece in learning to ski well is to become free from the restrictions imposed by much of skiing's dogma. There is so much destructive half-true and completely false "conventional wisdom" floating around in skiing, masquerading as fact and repeated as advice from instructors, coaches, athletes, and well-meaning friends, that we must be willing to challenge and explore everything with an open mind. Among the nearly sacred and unquestionable bits of conventional wisdom on skis, that can potentially interfere with success at finding the Infinity Move, is the advice to "move forward along the length of your skis to start a turn," and other related ideas. It's not that we don't need to move forward, but the questions remain: how? when? which direction is "forward"? aren't I already moving forward? And so on. (Imagine if the little trampoline guy in my clip above thought that he needed to get "ahead of his feet" while in the air between the tramps?) We really don't need to understand a lot to ski well--look at many "natural athletes," or children--but a critical misunderstanding will certainly wreak havoc if we try to apply it blindly.

Accept nothing as truth, no matter who says it, until you've had a chance to explore it, challenge it, understand it, and apply it to your own skiing--if it works. Reject it if it doesn't. Question everything (not the same as doubting everything), with what Carl Sagan described as "scientific skepticism." And go out and play on your skis!

Best regards,
Bob
 

Monique

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another critical piece in learning to ski well is to become free from the restrictions imposed by much of skiing's dogma.

The piece of advice I'm working to internalize is from Jenn Losch (I believe you know her!) : "Monique, stop trying to be so fucking perfect!" ... it's really, really hard for me to just trust my body. But when my brain is in control, there's too much of a lag and it's not smooth and flowy like I want to be.

I felt like I got there a bit this weekend - some sequences in the bumps where it just felt right and I allowed my body to do the work, instead of my brain.
 
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Bob Barnes

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Jenn Losch (one of Breckenridge's star instructors) is a wise woman.

Perfection is the enemy of good! Perfection is about technique. Good is about being an athlete, trusting your body and skills, freeing your mind, and performing at your highest level. Perfection is linear and rote, one step at a time. Good is global, 4-dimensional, flowing, rhythmic. Perfection is about thinking. Good is about awareness.

Quoting Weems (again)--his ability chart goes Beginner >> Intermediate >> Expert >> GOOD. 'Nuff said!

Best regards,
Bob
 

LiquidFeet

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Here's something I stumbled upon a few years back. There might be something in this story that relates to the discussion here of how a skier might progress from braking moves and intentions to allowing themselves to get ahead of their skis.

It was a late spring morning, with about 5 inches of fresh overnight heavy wet snow on the mountain. On my first run I took a wrong turn and ended up on a long green trail that had very little pitch. One ski patroller (my assumption) had done that run before me; his (or her) set of tracks stretched out ahead of me. Those tracks were perfect little half-circles, very tiny short radius round turns, very complete each one of them. To entertain myself, I tried to match those turns, one-for-one, creating criss-crossed tracks in the snow. The run was long, and by the time I got back to the lift I was successful. I did another run, just for fun, and the same person had done a second set. So after my run we had made two side-by-side sets of criss-crossed tracks all the way down.

The radius was way shorter than my skis would scribe from decambering and riding the sidecut. So ... there was some work to be done to make those tiny round turns. I found that this scenario worked:
--start with my body ahead of my skis,
--then pull the skis from behind me out-and-around to in front of me (lengthening legs out to side),
--then allow my body to move forward over the skis (and/or pull the feet back/flex)
--and do it all again moving skis out and around and forward on the other side.
I could feel myself using muscle power to move my skis in a sideways figure eight (infinity symbol) beneath my body. This feeling was quite pronounced; it's actually a backpedal thing. The skis were tipped so they bent and created a curved path, but I was moving them on that circular path quite deliberately so they would match the previous skier's tracks.

The sideways eight that the skis did beneath me is the same as Bob's infinity move, but this whole thing I was doing is not Bob's infinity move as he describes it. The momentum and pitch required that I do some muscling of the skis in order to match that other skier's turns. It was the last day of the season, and I was very sore the next day so there was strong evidence that this whole enterprise required an unfamiliar movement pattern. Simply relaxing would not have produced such tiny turns.


Even though this is not the turning mechanism that Bob is talking about, it did involve the business of the body moving ahead of the skis with each turn. It also involved getting the skis waaay out to the side as I moved them forward, under a stable upper body. Later I was able to transfer some of this to skiing on steeper terrain where momentum and gravity gave my turns more of a boost, and such muscle action was no longer required.

It's just a story. I don't think I've got a specific point I'm making, except that there are similarities ....
 
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Eleeski

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@Bob Barnes as I watch your excellent video I am stuck with a waterski analogy. You describe a slalom turn at the buoy quite well (there's the transition into the pull that's different but it is a different sport). However, every snow ski instructor is all over me to stop leaning into the turn with my upper body. Especially in those cool high gee power turns. Is there a trick to getting the load you describe without committing the upper body to a big lean?

@LiquidFeet Figure eights are the coolest part of powder! Loved your narrative. I'm jonesing for some powder now.

Eric
 

KevinF

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So, since I am starting to feel this floaty, fun, flingy, weightless feeling at the very beginning of the release of a turn/initiation into the new turn, does this mean that I am finally moving out of my "terminal intermediate" status? I feel like I am really starting to angule, riding those edges around (oh those Sambas, they can sure fly!) And I feel that edge-of-balance feeling fore/aft, where I keep my stance forward to stay over my skis. Because if I don't, I'll be riding those tails and skidding.

Lots of folks I know won't go out on a groomer day. Maybe they don't get this feeling? I think it's an absolute blast. The harmony is similar to that I get when I have a perfectly harmonious ride on my horse. Everything is in sync, smooth, soft, effortless. Perfect rhythm.

Yeah, you're getting it. You *know* you've "got it" when you realize you didn't have to do anything to start a new turn... your skis just start turning the other way, and -- like Bob said above -- all you focus on is finding the next spot for the paths to cross. Turning just happens.

It's definitely not a groomer-only thing either.. . once you get it, the whole mountain opens up to you. Bumps, crud, it all becomes, well, not "easy", but not "impossible". You'll start to see possibilities that you never considered before. The "infinity move" is my favorite thing ever in skiing.
 

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