Drill The Infinity Move

Discussion in 'Ski School' started by Bob Barnes, Nov 22, 2015.

  1. 1chris5

    1chris5 Getting off the lift Skier

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2017
    Posts:
    333
    Location:
    Chester Springs, PA
    Thanks for this very detailed response. I look forward to checking these items off via my technique. Frankly, I thought I was doing the infinity move (at least on occasion). I am going to carefully review this. Cheers
     
  2. mdf

    mdf entering the Big Couloir Skier

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    3,117
    Location:
    Boston Suburbs
    No guarantee my memory or understanding is correct, but I thought it was a specialized move for when the course set was too wide to ski a clean line around. Going to the inside ski had the benefit of moving them uphill by one step.
     
  3. LiquidFeet

    LiquidFeet Making fresh tracks Instructor

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    1,967
    Location:
    New England
    Here's Bob's visual provided in his original post. At the end of that post, he said,
    "Within this animation lie answers to many questions--in particular the often-discussed (and therefore ultimately confusing) role of fore-aft and lateral movements of the body relative to the feet. There is much to discuss here. Go for it!"
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2017
    Dave Petersen and 1chris5 like this.
  4. Chris Geib

    Chris Geib cgeib Skier

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    249
    Location:
    Dillon, CO

    Hi Josh, my understanding is the term White Pass Turn (or Move, or Lean) was coined following observations of the Mahre's skiing where they moved across aggressively and deep into the new turn on the new inside ski with the old inside ski being pulled off the snow (or moved to the new inside ski momentarily as a delay to adjust/correct timing) then engaging the new outside ski in (or about) the fall-line in the new turn.

    Then the White Pass Turn drill came about following the observations in their skiing.

    I think most White Pass Turn "drills" in practice are one-footed skiing drills and do not focus on or capture what I understand was observed in the Mahre's White Pass Move.

    I did a quick search and cannot find footage again. @Bob Barnes might have video in his archive?
     
    SkiNurse, 1chris5 and Lorenzzo like this.
  5. Living Proof

    Living Proof We All Have The Truth Skier

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Posts:
    628
    Location:
    Philly Guy
    Years ago, I had the Mahre Brothers "Ski the Mahre Way". Memory may be poorly serving, but, the Mahre's branded the name of the move in that book. Memory tells me that the movement they are referring to was to keep all weight on the outside downhill ski at finish, and, then. roll the weighted ski to the other edge so that for a split second you are riding the uphill edge of the inside ski. I am not sure if the Mahre's advocated the extreme lifting of the new outside ski as observed in many of the White Pass turns on Youtube. As a teaching drill, if you keep the new outside high in the air, then you must release from the old turn by rolling the weighted ski. I think the movement is also referred to as a VonGrunigan turn named for the champion GS Swiss skier. In the very early PMTS teachings, Harb demonstrated a "one foot" release very similar to the Mahre movement, and, he would refer to it a a VonGrunigan turn.
    Again, the above is my remembrance, and, I am known to be inaccurate. Could not find the written documents from the Mahre Book. It's always best to return to the original material, perhaps someone find the book and quote directly.

    Just remembered that @Bob Barnes did teach at the Mahre clinics, so, he must have great insights.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2017
    1chris5 likes this.


  6. Chris Geib

    Chris Geib cgeib Skier

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    249
    Location:
    Dillon, CO
    Hi LP,

    I am seeing when you "roll the weighted ski to the other edge" you are now on the downhill edge of this downhill (now new inside) ski at the beginning of the new turn ...having originally started on the uphill edge (of this old outside ski) prior to moving into the new turn. No?

    The lifting, meh. When a drill I suspect it needs to be made visible, but that is not really the point. If you were doing tracer turns with 99.99999% of your weight on one ski the old_inside/new_outside ski would stay on the snow and all else would be the same.
     
    Bob Barnes likes this.
  7. Living Proof

    Living Proof We All Have The Truth Skier

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Posts:
    628
    Location:
    Philly Guy
    Hi Chris...long time since we made some turns

    Yes, what you have written is consistent with the intent of my words.

    Check out this video of Von Grunigan GS run. He makes this movement very frequently. And, he wins the GS by close to 2 seconds. Some great skiing from 20 years ago. I prefer the old GS to what is current.

     
  8. James

    James Skiing the powder Instructor

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Posts:
    7,877
    Almost every gs run will have a White Pass turn in it from moving in (downhill) too quickly. Or really, they are often late and have to move in to make the turn while the downhill ski is still big toe edged.

    Well here's what @Bob Barnes wrote in his Encyclopedia (1999).
    IMG_2082.JPG

    We did White Pass with Robin Barnes once at Big Sky and brought it into the cutup powder. ( Surely Chris remembers because he herded me off a cliff at Big Sky).

    They're good for getting people to commit down hill. It doesn't work otherwise. For some reason people make them complicated and mysterious. They're not.
    Perhaps it's the name.
     
    Mendieta, 1chris5 and Living Proof like this.
  9. 1chris5

    1chris5 Getting off the lift Skier

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2017
    Posts:
    333
    Location:
    Chester Springs, PA
    Hi @LiquidFeet - thanks for this great feedback and I finally got back on the snow, since this post, due to weather. I skied with your list in mind. I think I'm good. I need to continually work on "over-completing" my turns but I feel how after the transition; the skis turn themselves ("do nothing initiation"). I don't feel a funny thing in my belly when in transition (as reported by others), but I do feel weightlessness. I was also throwing my upper body forward a little bit to make sure I was getting that move correct. I really appreciate your help and will keep this list handy when I start up again next year. Cheers, Chris
     
    Lorenzzo and LiquidFeet like this.
  10. Mendieta

    Mendieta Master of Snowplow Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Posts:
    3,914
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA, USA
    Thank you so much for taking the time to provide such a clear, no nonsense post, @LiquidFeet . @Lorenzzo made reference to it today, on the lift. He literally said this is one of the brightest posts he has seen in a long time, in terms of technique discussion, so I went back to re-reading it. I will work around these fundamentals. I think @razie also rightly points the importance of separation. I believe it is the single breakthrough that opens everything up. Working on it :)
     
  11. markojp

    markojp mtn rep for the gear on my feet Industry Insider Instructor

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    3,154
    Location:
    PNW aka SEA
    Good stuff aplenty in this thread! The other sensation that will click when it all comes together is the feeling that you've accessed a whole new universe of your functional 'range of motion'. Abduction, adduction, obliques, etc... as your 'CMU' skiing era ends. What's CMU? Concrete Masonary Unit... you'll stop skiing like a human brick. ogsmile Instructors training for their certification(s) will stop skiing like they're constipated and pushing a shopping cart.

    In the end, skiing at higher levels is an athletic endeavor. Watch any accomplished athlete in any sport, and you'll immediately see their range of motion (not necessarily raw strength) vs. the rest of us trying to access the same outcomes.
    This clip is a good one for visualization. We see the best 'slowing it down' to a rate and intensity that we can imagine ourselves accessing:

     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  12. 1chris5

    1chris5 Getting off the lift Skier

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2017
    Posts:
    333
    Location:
    Chester Springs, PA
    I really like this video. Mikaela, in this video, skis with fluidity, athleticism and grace but at a level that anyone can apply to their own skiing. I've seen this video before but I am saving the link in my google keep notes and going to trim just the bit where she is actually skiing and not drilling (1:10 to 1:20). When my family gets back on skis I am going to show this to my 9 year old daughter. She is always interested in improving her skill level. I think the visual of Mikaela psuedo free-skiing in 1:10 to 1:20 will help her (and me) to visualize her next level skiing moves. I don't think it reaches the level of the Infinity Move but it is close. Here is the clip below. Cheers

     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
    Myles and markojp like this.
  13. markojp

    markojp mtn rep for the gear on my feet Industry Insider Instructor

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    3,154
    Location:
    PNW aka SEA
    Save the drills too, Chris. Look at them closely in relationship to your quest. Not trying be coy, but the infinity move has to have upper and lower body separation and we need to be aligned correctly to move accurately over the outside ski. That's what she's working on to get to 1:10 in the video. ogsmile
     
  14. 1chris5

    1chris5 Getting off the lift Skier

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2017
    Posts:
    333
    Location:
    Chester Springs, PA
    As much as I want to drill, I just don't do them. I can do the above turn but I feel like that is a perfect example to emulate. I feel like if I can keep that image in my mind, I can get close to that level of fluidity. That's why I like Bob's Infinity Move video; it teaches the end result. It allows me to intuitively put all the pieces together without having to have 10 different ski thoughts in my mind. In thinking deeply about this, I am trying to tailor a program for my kids that gets right to the point. I feel like one point is the image of Makaela performing those beautiful turns. I don't expect my kids to ski like that but I want to show them what a great turn looks like. Obviously there is a reason a great skier like her still does those simple drills. I am hoping I can get my daughter (she's 8 now) to watch and then a light bulb goes off and she thinks, that's what I want to look like. Maybe she will want to do those drills but if she doesn't, at least she has that goal in her mind. She gets close to this goal; then I can show her the Infinity Move.
     
    Bob Barnes likes this.
  15. markojp

    markojp mtn rep for the gear on my feet Industry Insider Instructor

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2015
    Posts:
    3,154
    Location:
    PNW aka SEA
    No worries about doing the drills or not, but they're still good for us to see. I agree with showing your daughter the outcome. Kids are very visual learners.
     
    1chris5 likes this.
  16. john petersen

    john petersen working through minutia to find the big picture! Moderator Instructor

    Joined:
    May 8, 2017
    Posts:
    327
    Location:
    Eastern
    This is one of the best threads I have ever read!....way to go gang! I do have a chart that I made when I went through my level 2 and it shows where my head was with regard to the centerline, skills concept, some sample progressions, part of the teaching model, ect.....I tried to "blend" it all into one visual. perhaps for another thread?...If anyone is interested Ill post it up.

    Its taken me all night to read through this thread...had dessert, a cup o tea, kept reading....wonderful stuff.

    Thanks Bob for posting it and all those who contributed....I will be thinking about this alot next season!

    JP
     
    Mendieta likes this.
  17. Mendieta

    Mendieta Master of Snowplow Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Posts:
    3,914
    Location:
    SF Bay Area, CA, USA
    Hi JP

    It would be lovely. Perhaps a new thread would be best, yes, here at the Ski School. Looking forward to it! And hopefully learn some more. Cheers!
     
  18. Varmintmist

    Varmintmist Bear, with furnture. Skier

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Posts:
    417
    Location:
    W PA
    Never knew what to call it, know what it feels like. I found it again on blue groomers this season when I just let the skis run after 3 years post 16 year hiatus. The explanation helps know what to look for. Now send some cold and snow and I can try finding it again.
     
  19. Ron

    Ron AKA Captain Voltaren Pugski Ski Tester

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2015
    Posts:
    5,558
    Location:
    Steamboat Springs, Co
    kicking this back up since classics never die.
     
    1chris5, Decreed_It and Philpug like this.
  20. Philpug

    Philpug Enjoying being back on two skis. Admin Pugski Ski Tester

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Posts:
    21,480
    Location:
    Reno, eNVy
    And now it is a sticky.
     
    1chris5, Decreed_It and tromano like this.

Share This Page


  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice