Mendieta

Master of Snowplow
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Heck I am showing more Infinity move than Mosley in this bumpy woods run. but not every turn, because in some turns its not appropriate.
Nice turns, Josh! I am not an expert so I'm asking, but is it possible that these bumps between the trees were much softer snow where you can pretty much choose a wider, smoother line? (if you are an expert skier, that is). Moseley was clearly not demonstrating the Infinity move, as much as gracefully pivoting between deep, steep,hard packed bumps, but if you look at his legs and his COM, it seems to me that the legs are describing a much wider trajectory, and the trajectory does look really smooth to me.

In other words, I interpret Moseley's turns as a "constrained infinity move". Where the constraint is provided by the bumps and his choice of pivoting at the top of the bump. Cheers!
 

Josh Matta

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well There is not such thing as a constrained infinity move. Its either there or not. Its is not there in a single turn in the mosley video, and I have skied an entire day with Mosley at Stowe, and it was never present in a single turn.

Steep hardpack bumps can be skied with round short turns...even by hack like me....The snow conditions are irrelevant I know these are not steep, but they are hardpack, and I certain that on sharp skis I can go ski bump far icey than mosley video during the infinity move.

 

Josh Matta

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the slo mo bump skiing is legit, the other video is interesting.
 

James

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That first Korean vid- Needs Ex lax?

Here ya go. Classic infinity from Ted.
 

Yo Momma

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While I don't disagree, Jerez, that's an interesting analogy that may not, actually, hold true. I've related this story before....

Many years ago, at Keystone, I had a fascinating intermediate-skiing student who was a recently-retired prima ballerina from a renowned ballet company. Such was her body awareness, balance, flexibility, and precise body control that she could reproduce--perfectly--any movement I could describe in detail and any movement I could demonstrate. I could point to a skier, and she could imitate like a perfect double. What she could NOT do, to both of our fascination, was find "her" way to ski. She could ski tall, short, or medium, on command, but she was unable to find the functionally optimal "natural" stance that just worked best and "felt right." She could ski to any rhythm--but could not find her own.

On reflection, she realized that for her entire career, she had trained herself (and was among the best in world) to make movements precisely and on command, with robotic perfection and consistency, regardless of how they "felt," how "efficient" they were, or what effects they produced. It was her job to make movements and hold positions that were often unnatural and painful, and to ignore the pain.

Unlike skiing movements, this student's ballet moves were not means to an end. The movements themselves were the end and the purpose, and she had trained herself to ignore their often painful consequences. I'd argue that, left to themselves, our "genius" bodies would never learn to make some of the unnatural, painful movements of ballet!

On the other hand, my wife Susan, who also danced ballet, often describes the best dancers as dancing "with abandon"--but with still extraordinary precision and discipline. I suspect that even my intriguing student must have been able to progress to a stage of "abandon" where conscious self-direction quiets and highly-trained movements arise from the music, the dance partner, or the emotion of the performance. But since the precise movements came first and foremost, she had to focus on them directly, at first, and only then could she "forget about them" with the confidence that her body would do it right when she is lost in the moment. "Discipline," as champion skater Elvis Stojko says, "will set you free."

For all its flow and elegance, beneath the surface, ballet is one of the most technical, precise, and unnatural mechanically-based disciplines there is. I suspect that great ballet instructors are actually very good at breaking down and analyzing the movements into their tiniest components. I suspect that many of them are strongly grounded in physics and biomechanics--if not formally, then through experience. Dancers themselves--like skiers--need not understand all these things, but their coaches and instructors must.

You don't need to understand much of anything to ski well--witness the naturalness of children, and the "unconscious competence" of top athletes. But any significant misunderstanding will devastate your performance--whether it is your misunderstanding or your instructor's. Accurate working knowledge (at least) of physics principles, biomechanics, technical models, movement analysis, and so on are very important for instructors and coaches. Again, they are not what is taught, but they are a critical foundation that underlies the simplicity and accuracy of what is taught. Students who have little interest in these things (and there are some who do have that interest) should be grateful that their instructor is up to speed on them, and willing to put in the time to learn these details!

Best regards,
Bob
Interesting.......... my GF is ex ballet. In teaching her I found I have to continually "flip the script" on her or else she tends to default to "exact copy" mode as they can copy any movement w/ precision. Teaching her taxed all of my skills as I had to continually change up my styles so she would not lock on to one particular format. Anyway I learned that for her, adding music to the equation actually helped. During her tenure w/ dance, her music was always chosen for her..... when she chooses her own music it helps to open the doorway to more self-expression. It changed her skiing from "carbon copy" and seemed to help her capture her own creativity and enhance her own particular style. It was a nice experiment that continues to this day w/ a tip of the hat to the debate on learning to ski w/ or w/o music.......... as I respect both schools of thought and both have merit from my limited experience.

We use these: http://www.outdoortechnology.com/wireless-audio/chips .......... the bass response and glove friendly functionality is the best I've found so far......... for teaching it's easy to Pause, chat the Play again........ stops the overly conventional and sometimes obnoxious BF yelling instructions on slope at GF......... I've always found that technique annoying........... LOL
 
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James

Skiing the powder
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Interesting.
Last May at Abasin we skied with Weems and a few people from Aspen Highlands. One was a ballet dancer/lawyer. Last run we get to a groomer. She said she "Didn't know what to do on groomers". They left before we could explore it.

Hirscher, 2015 Vail GS
image.jpg

Photo Ron Le Master
http://www.ronlemaster.com
 

1chris5

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Getting to infinity.... how do we get a beginner or intermediate here? I was looking at this clip and thinking through the simplicity of the message and what could be taken way/modified/inprovised... thoughts?


And will say I love your clips, Bob!
Thanks for that video. I have seen several of his videos and really like his presentation technique. He is clear, concise and accessible.
 

1chris5

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I am obsessed with the infinity move. My goal is to use this move in as many situations on the mountain as possible (groomers, crud, moguls, steeps, powder etc.). I like it because it's big picture. It is the end result. It is easy to picture what my skiing should look like, before and during a run, in my minds eye without having to sweat the details of the myriad of movements above and below the belt line. I do also think about little toe edges but that's about it. My question in this is, what is the minimum level of competence needed to achieve the infinity move? Is it railroad tracks? By this I mean a virtual 50/50 weighting of the inside and outside ski. The pictures and videos always depict level 9 and above elite skiers. I was reading an article from youcanski.com about weighting the inside ski in a race turn. It's kind of difficult to achieve if you do not come from a racing background. I am not even sure how applicable that technique is to all mountain free skiing; yet the ski racer is very often the example. Bob Barnes is an amazing skier and when you see him performing the infinity move, it's a joy to watch, but that level of expertise is not normal. Approximately what skill level (1-9) does the infintiy move begin at and what technique should a skier use to reach this minimum level?
 

Yo Momma

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^^^^^^^Not sure if this is even correct but I tend to focus on the "Trampoline Effect" basically like the video. That video helped immensely. I've been drilling this for hours ad nauseam It's fun imagining going from L mini tramp to R mini tramp. I do it to diff music to vary my timing I also vary the sizes of the turns, leaning fwd, leaning back, centered........ throwing in as many variables as possible (poles, no poles, poles wide, poles skinny, greens, blacks, blues, trees...... single track mtn bike trails..... anything I can think of.) Eventually I figured out between Infinity and Backwards Pivots that my left toe was my weak point. From there started doing "Tapping Bellows Turns" where the bellowing ski has to gently tap the front toe in different rhythmic patterns. Then I reverse the bellows and bellow the outside ski and tap it to diff patterns............fun stuff that makes a groomer day super fun and interesting! :beercheer:
 

Josh Matta

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I am obsessed with the infinity move. My goal is to use this move in as many situations on the mountain as possible (groomers, crud, moguls, steeps, powder etc.). I like it because it's big picture. It is the end result. It is easy to picture what my skiing should look like, before and during a run, in my minds eye without having to sweat the details of the myriad of movements above and below the belt line. I do also think about little toe edges but that's about it. My question in this is, what is the minimum level of competence needed to achieve the infinity move? Is it railroad tracks? By this I mean a virtual 50/50 weighting of the inside and outside ski. The pictures and videos always depict level 9 and above elite skiers. I was reading an article from youcanski.com about weighting the inside ski in a race turn. It's kind of difficult to achieve if you do not come from a racing background. I am not even sure how applicable that technique is to all mountain free skiing; yet the ski racer is very often the example. Bob Barnes is an amazing skier and when you see him performing the infinity move, it's a joy to watch, but that level of expertise is not normal. Approximately what skill level (1-9) does the infintiy move begin at and what technique should a skier use to reach this minimum level?
first inside ski weighting as anything more than a drill is a myth. Youcanski.com are a bunch of hacks. They advocate waist steering as well.....

You can see it in a good gliding wedge turn so at the L3 level. You do not need to RR track at all but you will probably not be able to RR track on anything but the most mellow runs with out it. The Infinity move is extremely present in all mountain free skiing.
 

LiquidFeet

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1chris5, here are my responses to your post in red.

I am obsessed with the infinity move. .... Good!
I do also think about little toe edges but that's about it. Yes, the little toe edge (LTE) is involved.
....My question in this is, what is the minimum level of competence needed to achieve the infinity move? Is it railroad tracks? RRTrx are not necessary for doing the "Infinity Move."
....By this I mean a virtual 50/50 weighting of the inside and outside ski. 50-50 weight distribution is not relevant for the "Infinity Move."
....The pictures and videos always depict level 9 and above elite skiers. Not necessary; I can do it and I'm no Level 9 Elite skier.
....Approximately what skill level (1-9) does the infintiy move begin at and what technique should a skier use to reach this minimum level? Let's forget the skill level business and get the technique cleared up so you can learn it.

1. Do you have upper body/lower body separation?
You need to be able to have your skis turn without your upper body turning. Why? Because skiing is a foot-leg sport. You need to motor your turns with your feet/legs, not with your upper body. Allowing your skis to turn without involving the whole-body will improve your balance and open up the possibility of short radius turns on all terrain.
2. Do you have angulation? You need to be able to create edge angles by shortening one leg and lengthening the other, while keeping the upper body upright (not tilted, not banked, not leaning in). Why? You need to motor your turns with your feet/legs, not with your upper body. Tipping your skis without involving whole-body lean will improve your balance and open up the possibility of short radius turns on all terrain.
3. Got those two? Now work on your short radius turns. Why? Because feeling the "infinity move" do its thing is easier when doing short radius turns. You'll be able to feel it clearly when it kicks in. There will be no lack of certainty.
4. Before Bob called this the "Infinity Move," I thought of it as moving your feet in a "Sideways Figure Eight" beneath your hips/upper body. Does that make sense? When sliding, one can slide those feet in all kinds of directions, because they aren't stuck to the ground ... as long as the upper body is not turning and tilting along with the skis (thus #1 and #2 above).
5. When you've got the short radius turns with separation and angulation, start paying attention to where your two feet are relative to your hips as they slide around under your hips/upper body. Constantly being aware of this is essential; you can train yourself to pay attention. Make short radius turns, and pay close attention to the location of your feet; do they stay downhill of the hips at the end of the turn? Do they go out to the side of the hips at the middle of the turn? Do they stay under your hips the whole turn? Just pay attention.... No fair looking; do this by Braille.
6. Next, work on fully completing your turns. Make your skis turn to point totally across the hill at the end of your turns. Work on doing this consistently in your short radius turns, while paying attention to where the feet are in relation to the hips above them.
7. Now start working for the prize.... Bring your inside foot back up under your inside hip as you complete your turns. Do not let it stay downhill of your hips, not even a tiny wee bit downhill of your hips. How? Do this by shortening that inside leg and tipping that inside foot/ski more and more to its LTE. Shorten that leg to bring that foot up under you. You may turn it as well to head back up the hill under you. This movement pattern is essential. Feel it happening, and feel how close the foot comes up under the hip above it.
8. You will find that the outside foot/ski also comes up under you along with the inside foot/ski, as the turn is completed. When those two feet are heading back up under you at the end of the turns, they are following the path of one lobe of the Sideways Figure Eight/Infinity shape. You are doing it, sorta.
9. Time to hit the jackpot: "over-complete" your turns. Do this by bringing both feet back up under your body so far that your hips and your whole upper body end up, by default, downhill of your feet. It makes sense to call this "Over-Completing" the turns. If you are able to track where your feet are relative to your hips, you'll know when you are doing this... no fair looking; you'll fall on your head.
10. When your feet get above your body (technically, your center of mass) on the hill (even a tiny wee bit), you'll topple onto your new edges without having to do anything else. Your body will have crossed over your skis without you moving it there; the skis will consequently tip onto new edges. Your Sideways-Figure-Eight-Infinity-Move will have initiated your next turn simply because you "over-completed" the last turn. Your feet will have followed one lobe of the Infinity-Move-Sideways-Figure-Eight path. Repeat as you link short radius turns, and you'll feel your feet moving along that Sideways Eight underneath your body quite clearly. A similar version applies to medium and long radius turns, but it's not as dramatic to feel as you are learning it.
11. This is what Bob calls the "do nothing" initiation. You didn't initiate anything, you simply completed the last turn. (I think he used that phrase....)
12. The first time this works, hold onto your socks. You will be surprised at the sensation. That next turn will happen lickity-split fast and unexpectedly, because you didn't make it happen the usual way. Enjoy!

Now, I may be totally embarrassed by Bob posting that I've go this totally all wrong. It works for me this way, nevertheless.
 
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Josh Matta

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White Pass turns begin on the new inside ski and end on the new outside ski. Helped the Mahres win golds.
so what does racing on straight skis have anything to do with modern racing or freeskiing?

If anything the white pass turn is just extremely outside ski dominance at the bottom of the turn.

and lastly this video....


not only is Phil balanced on his outside ski, he is also doing the infinity move!!!
 

Josh Matta

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again not seeing the white pass turn..... are you sure it was nt just a drill they did?
 
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