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The Importance of Femur Rotation in Carving

Eleeski

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I'm not sure exactly what Femur rotation is. I do know that when my hip was bad, I couldn't hold edges on ice. I was unable to actually displace my hips - either with lots of twist or angulation. The new Birmingham hip allowed me to regain my range of motion. It was astonishing how much different (better) firm snow felt!

Surprisingly, during the time I skied with limited hip motion, soft bumps were fine. Perhaps I could compensate with lots more knee displacement. Maybe my bump style is more upright. I was certainly able to pull back my skis and twist them the few degrees needed to follow the zipper line. I don't angulate much in bumps - perhaps that's why bumps were OK?

A wide dynamic range of motion is certainly needed for good carving technique. Femurs need to move in lots of directions.

Eric
 

Chris Geib

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I’m going from the description and demo off snow. I didn’t watch the skiing. I wasn’t talking fore/aft. Look at the image below.
You’re driving the front of the ski more into the snow, no? How else does rotation affect a well edged ski?
Are we saying that there’s no effect on the ski and it only increases angulation?
View attachment 78809

I have always liked that image, James. Where is the equal & opposite???? Hint: Put your SL on and dial up the crank to 11 through the whole turn.
 

Scruffy

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No no no please not that guy.

Haha, yeah he's an acquired taste, but if you can make it through his blog he has a plethora of research and information about the human foot and it's function visa-vi skiing.
 

Scruffy

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"part 6"?

At the bottom of each blog there should be pointers to the other parts, if he remembers to add them ogsmile
 

Scruffy

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There's like 12 if you can find them.
Reading is another thing.
View attachment 78815


Haha... yeah he goes off on tangents a lot. It's worth it to slog through it an glean what you can. Sometimes his references yield a lot too.
 

Loki1

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While many talk about flexion/extension as the main driver of release and transition, the reallity is femur rotation is the main functional process of transition. Without it nothing would happen. You can flex/extend all you want but without femur rotation the com/edges never change sides. That means the skier never goes in the other direction. If more people understood this we would be in a better place overall in our understanding of skiing and teaching.
 

LiquidFeet

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How about these turns when Bode is on one ski?
What role does femur rotation play in these turns?
 
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François Pugh

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If you could not rotate femurs but could still flex, you could still go from turn to turn. Extending the old inside leg raises com and gives centrifugal force a longer lever arm and you topple into the new turn. Retracting the old outside leg reduces the turning force and you topple into the new turn. It is a simple torque balance on a free body diagram. Femur rotation smooths things out.
 

razie

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The more you flex in transition, the more femur rotation is directly involved in switching the edges... but not the way you'd necessarily think... since the edges are the ones that are locked in a line, is the femur rotation responsible for getting the body on the other side or does it just "allow it"? The physics involved are very interesting and not always obvious...

tipping-and-femur-rotation.jpg
 

LiquidFeet

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....It is a simple torque balance on a free body diagram.....

There are numerous ways to start a turn.

Got a diagram handy for the torque balance/free body thing? Would love to see how this works in skiing, shown in diagram form.

Building on this direction of thought....
Just lengthening the uphill leg when traversing (there will be uphill tip lead because of the hill's pitch) causes the skis to begin to turn to point downhill. One can be going very slowly as this happens. The skis begin to turn as they flatten, so "toppling" does not need to happen to start the skis turning. @François Pugh, do you have an engineer's explanation for this one? The tip lead has to be there for it to work. If the skier traverses square, with no tip lead, the skis do not turn to point downhill when that uphill leg lengthens. I don't think it's the body unwinding at the hip sockets that causes the turning.
 
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James

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I don’t see how you do much without some femur rotation either active or passive. Even a wooden soldier turn is going to have some rotation in the socket, no? As soon as there’s separation there’s definitely rotation.
 

CalG

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An amazing video from Checkpoint. I love the visual example of the guy on the bungee and two slippery surfaces. What I take away from this is the importance of creating the lateral force toward the inside of the turn, which as I see it comes from femur rotation.


Feel free to disabuse me of my interpretation. It is summer after all.

Mike


I make it a point to never ski like that. I'm a grown up!
 

Brian Finch

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An amazing video from Checkpoint. I love the visual example of the guy on the bungee and two slippery surfaces. What I take away from this is the importance of creating the lateral force toward the inside of the turn, which as I see it comes from femur rotation.


Feel free to disabuse me of my interpretation. It is summer after all.

Mike

:golfclap:

The side of the rotation matter. Motions are coupled : Flexion/External rotation & Extension/Internal rotation. So, where the inside leg flexes & gets the benefit of some paired external rotation, the outside ski flexes (relative to the torso, anatomic neutral) & in order to avert slipping via external rotation, some internal rotation needs to be created.

*I leave it to the instructors to best describe their perspectives on how this occurs. :roflmao:
 

Loki1

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Ok. So I apologize for my crappy pics/drawings but I hope they convey what I m trying to say.

In this image if the skier extends and only extends his right(inside) hip, knee, and ankle; his whole body would move in the direction of the arrow. Resulting in the inside leg taking over pressure and balance and no changing of edges.

9BFFAA8B-7BA3-4652-B7C2-6E2A1804C1D3.jpeg


In this image, if the skier only flexes his left(outside) leg the body would move in the direction of the arrow until the inside leg got in the way. At that point the skier would either balance on the inside leg and the outside would simply come off the snow or more likely the skier would topple because of the inside leg. This however would not result in an edge change without something else happening so while it would cause a toppling it wouldn’t create an edge change so it would result in a fall if nothing else happens.

9A798710-0515-4B70-9455-69E690BD97C0.jpeg


In this image the skiers femurs are rotated. The outside femur is rotated internally and the inside femur is rotated externally. This allows the skier to balance effectively on either edge, if he so chooses. For him to balance on the opposite edges effectively he must rotate his femurs in the opposite direction. That rotation is what causes the edges to change not flexion/extension. There are only two times flexion/extension can cause the edges to increase or decrease in angle one is when a skier is in a wedge so both legs are outside the base of support. In this situation flexion/extension can move the body laterally. The other is when a skier is in a straight run and the skier flexes or extends only one leg causing the skier to move in one direction or the other. However after balance is achieved on whichever leg it requires femur rotation to then change edges again to go the other direction.

7C70BEE3-E558-42C8-AB4A-A81098E32B45.jpeg


Edge change is one of the only real absolutes in parallel skiing. Without it a single turn can be accomplished but linked or multiple turns cannot. And while flexion/extension. An cause the body to move across the skis without femur rotation one cannot effectively change edges.
How about these turns when Bode is on one ski?
What role does femur rotation play in these turns?

LiquidFeet. If you look closely at the video, while he is using his upper body and a lot of inclination you can see the turn doesn’t happen until the knee moves laterally. This is a clear indication of femur rotation, as that is the only way the knee can move laterally is through femur rotation. So again it plays a pivotal role in the edge change. When working it’s skiers on one footed skiing what is the main focus you have? I bet if you think about it it comes back to femur rotation in the end.
 

Rod9301

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Ok. So I apologize for my crappy pics/drawings but I hope they convey what I m trying to say.

In this image if the skier extends and only extends his right(inside) hip, knee, and ankle; his whole body would move in the direction of the arrow. Resulting in the inside leg taking over pressure and balance and no changing of edges.

View attachment 79721

In this image, if the skier only flexes his left(outside) leg the body would move in the direction of the arrow until the inside leg got in the way. At that point the skier would either balance on the inside leg and the outside would simply come off the snow or more likely the skier would topple because of the inside leg. This however would not result in an edge change without something else happening so while it would cause a toppling it wouldn’t create an edge change so it would result in a fall if nothing else happens.

View attachment 79722

In this image the skiers femurs are rotated. The outside femur is rotated internally and the inside femur is rotated externally. This allows the skier to balance effectively on either edge, if he so chooses. For him to balance on the opposite edges effectively he must rotate his femurs in the opposite direction. That rotation is what causes the edges to change not flexion/extension. There are only two times flexion/extension can cause the edges to increase or decrease in angle one is when a skier is in a wedge so both legs are outside the base of support. In this situation flexion/extension can move the body laterally. The other is when a skier is in a straight run and the skier flexes or extends only one leg causing the skier to move in one direction or the other. However after balance is achieved on whichever leg it requires femur rotation to then change edges again to go the other direction.

View attachment 79723

Edge change is one of the only real absolutes in parallel skiing. Without it a single turn can be accomplished but linked or multiple turns cannot. And while flexion/extension. An cause the body to move across the skis without femur rotation one cannot effectively change edges.


LiquidFeet. If you look closely at the video, while he is using his upper body and a lot of inclination you can see the turn doesn’t happen until the knee moves laterally. This is a clear indication of femur rotation, as that is the only way the knee can move laterally is through femur rotation. So again it plays a pivotal role in the edge change. When working it’s skiers on one footed skiing what is the main focus you have? I bet if you think about it it comes back to femur rotation in the end.
It seems to be that the femur rotation (in relation to the pelvis) happens when the upper body (and everything above the femur} counteracts.
 

Chris V.

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In this image if the skier extends and only extends his right(inside) hip, knee, and ankle; his whole body would move in the direction of the arrow. Resulting in the inside leg taking over pressure and balance and no changing of edges.

In this image, if the skier only flexes his left(outside) leg the body would move in the direction of the arrow until the inside leg got in the way. At that point the skier would either balance on the inside leg and the outside would simply come off the snow or more likely the skier would topple because of the inside leg. This however would not result in an edge change without something else happening so while it would cause a toppling it wouldn’t create an edge change so it would result in a fall if nothing else happens.

That [femur] rotation is what causes the edges to change not flexion/extension.

No, I have to disagree with this premise. In the photo, the skier, clearly a very good one, is in dynamic balance. There is a horizontal distance between the two edges that could potentially support the skier--the inside edge of the left ski, and the outside edge of the right ski. I'll go not very far out on a limb, and say that this skier is balanced dominantly on the left ski (the outside ski). If he flexes his left leg, and changes NOTHING else, that dynamic balance will be destroyed. The upward force of the snow will be transferred from the left ski to the right ski, meaning that the skier's degree of inclination as measured using the line from the center of mass through the base of support will no longer be sufficient to counterbalance the combination of the force of gravity and centripetal force. The skier will start to topple over to the outside. If he does NOTHING else to compensate, the angles between his body parts will remain the same, and the skis' edge angle will reduce to and past zero, until the skis move onto the opposite edges. If the skier does NOTHING else to compensate, he'll simply continue toppling and will fall over.

Likewise, if the skier instead extends the right leg and does NOTHING else, his balance will be affected in the same way, and he will start toppling over. The results will be similar.

In reality, all skiers DO make other movements to compensate for or accommodate the toppling and movement toward edge change that result from an outside flexion or inside extension. Many beginners and lower intermediates start a transition principally by an extension move, biased toward a greater extension of the old inside leg. Many are taught to start turns that way. They rely a lot on the toppling that this creates, and make compensating movements pretty late in the game, resulting in rather ungainly transitions.

Be that as it may, an element of this toppling is essential to all turns at all skill levels. Call it crossover, or crossunder, or whatever. But obviously the timing of this in relation to the degree of edge change created through other movements is going to vary from skier to skier, and the quality of skiing will be affected profoundly by that timing.

For him to balance on the opposite edges effectively he must rotate his femurs in the opposite direction.

With this I agree. Balancing on new edges is something different from just changing edges.
 

LiquidFeet

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....If he flexes his left leg, and changes NOTHING else, that dynamic balance will be destroyed. The upward force of the snow will be transferred from the left ski to the right ski, meaning that the skier's degree of inclination as measured using the line from the center of mass through the base of support will no longer be sufficient to counterbalance the combination of the force of gravity and centripetal force. The skier will start to topple over to the outside.
....Likewise, if the skier instead extends the right leg and does NOTHING else, his balance will be affected in the same way, and he will start toppling over. The results will be similar.....

@Loki1, those are good pics that do help clarify what you are saying. But what @Chris V. says, that toppling occurs as a direct result of flexing or extending one of those legs without consciously doing anything else, has been my repeated experience as a skier.

That said, "doing NOTHING else" probably doesn't happen in real turns. And a knee that moves laterally relative to the pelvis above it by definition involves femur rotation in that hip socket. Perhaps unconscious lateral movement of the knee does happen even if a skier intentionally tries to eliminate such movement. Perhaps.

If the skier is flexing the new inside leg to start a turn and intentionally rotating that femur, then that knee movement will make the skier go bowlegged. If the skier is extending the new outside leg and rotating that femur, then that movement will make the skier knock-kneed at initiation. (Or of course the skier could rotate both femurs to keep the shins parallel.) Thinking about it now, I can see that any of these movements will make the edge change of the skis happen earlier than it happens when simply flexing or extending the leg, because any lateral movement of the knee tilts the shin and the ski more than the toppling alone.

But lateral tilting of the lower leg to tip the skis does not have to have the lower leg tilt more than the upper leg. The whole leg can tilt as a unit without the femur rotation and lateral knee movement. Chris V. has explained why that follows from flexion or extension of the appropriate leg. Balance is disrupted and the CoM topples, bringing with it the legs and skis.

So let's assume your racer does manage to eliminate all femur rotation and only extends that new outside leg. Or only flexes that new inside leg. In each case his body will topple. He'll end up first on flat edges then on new edges. Again, this has been my experience in skiing.

If we had snow, it would be easy to go out and make some (parallel) turns, with the conscious intention of starting turns by extending the new outside leg without allowing femur rotation (or anything else) to happen, and then with the intention of flexing the new inside leg without allowing femur rotation to happen. Actually, that would be a great way to complete the first day on skis, trying to isolate both of those initiation strategies, performing each of them in isolation, without femur rotation, and seeing what happens.

I remember clearly my first experiments with each of these initiation movements. The results I felt were clear and unmistakeable. Shock and awe, actually, with a skier flavor.
 
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