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The Goldilocks of shells?

Dos-Equis

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Hi all,

After doing a probably excessive amount of research this summer Im back on the hunt for my first "big boy" shell. I thought my search was finished when I found a screaming deal on an Arcteryx Macai, but I spent one day out in it (and only a t shirt) sweating profusely and decided it wasnt the right choice for me . I feel Ive narrowed down the type of jacket I want, but I cant seem to find something that meets all the wickets.

Im primarily a resort skier from the DC area that runs pretty hot while active, but also very cold when stationary. For reference, I typically for for runs in 20-40 degree weather Ill wear with track pants and a t shirt- never a sweatshirt. But I will be in full sweats lounging around the home in my 70 degree house. This is the heart of my predicament. :huh:

This is where I turn to you good people. Have you guys stumbled across this elusive "perfect" jacket?

My criteria ( which are of course open to thoughts/criticism):

-As breathable as possible while still being waterproof enough to handle wet snow and light rain (neoshell? or maybe a true softshell could accomplish this? Im not totally clear)
-hood separate from collar (doesnt have to necessarily be removable, but I really like that the hood doesnt pull the collar into my face on these)
-decent Pit zips
-powder skirt. I fall too much not to have one :D
-not hugely baggy ala "freeride" fit. Im a pretty average build with semi-broad shoulders and a thinner waist, and Im not super keen on my midsection swimming in the jacket. Id like to be able to layer, though.
-preferably a non-insulated shell, but light breathable insulation wouldnt be the end of the world for an otherwise "perfect" jacket.


What sort of material should I be looking at? I've found something with all the features I want in the mountain hardware tenacity pro but Im worried the Dry-Q elite will not be breathable enough. Ive looked at neoshell, but it seems like the options are limited these days and I cant find a jacket that doesnt compromise one or more of the criteria. The old Outdoor Hardwear boundaryseeker would be perfect, but I cant find it for sale anywhere in my size. The Westcomb Apoc would be great if it had a powder skirt. But Ive also read that all these hardshells are only marginally different than each other, and all will essentially feel like skiing in a garbage bag. Im starting to suspect that a membrane-less softshell might be perfect for my needs, but I dont even know where to begin with that after researching hardshells for weeks.

Can I ask you guys for suggestions/tips?
 

Unpiste

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This doesn't quite have the hood you're looking for (and I agree, hoods with a separate collar are much better), but I like the material (Dry.Q Elite) in the Mountain Hardwear Superforma jacket. It's about as lightweight and breathable as I've found for a 3L jacket, and it's even a little stretchy, somewhat like a soft shell (but less).

I'd definitely look for something without insulation based on your requirements. (I essentially don't buy shells with insulation at this point.) I'm currently using the Outdoor Research White Room as my primary ski jacket (no longer even listed on the manufacturer's website, unfortunately), and while the fabric is a bit heavier weight (Gore-Tex Pro, I believe), I find it's still useable if I don't wear any insulating layers in the borderline (~32° F) rain/snow we get in Tahoe (where you'll really need the waterproofing).
 
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Dos-Equis

Dos-Equis

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This doesn't quite have the hood you're looking for (and I agree, hoods with a separate collar are much better), but I like the material (Dry.Q Elite) in the Mountain Hardwear Superforma jacket. It's about as lightweight and breathable as I've found for a 3L jacket, and it's even a little stretchy, somewhat like a soft shell (but less).

I'd definitely look for something without insulation based on your requirements. (I essentially don't buy shells with insulation at this point.) I'm currently using the Outdoor Research White Room as my primary ski jacket (no longer even listed on the manufacturer's website, unfortunately), and while the fabric is a bit heavier weight (Gore-Tex Pro, I believe), I find it's still useable if I don't wear any insulating layers in the borderline (~32° F) rain/snow we get in Tahoe (where you'll really need the waterproofing).

Thanks! Have you found the breathability to be acceptable with the dryQ membrane?
 

Tony S

I have a confusion to make ...
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I thought my search was finished when I found a screaming deal on an Arcteryx Macai, but I spent one day out in it (and only a t shirt) sweating profusely and decided it wasnt the right choice for me

What kind of "t shirt"? (Maybe what you need to mess with is the inner layers.)

For sweaty stuff I really like the Gore-tex Active material on my cycling jacket. Really breathable and reasonably water resistant.
 
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Dos-Equis

Dos-Equis

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What kind of "t shirt"? (Maybe what you need to mess with is the inner layers.)

For sweaty stuff I really like the Gore-tex Active material on my cycling jacket. Really breathable and reasonably water resistant.
It was a cotton long sleeve shirt. I definitely need to up my baselsyer game and I have a capeline shirt coming in the mail.
Because the inside of my jacket was soaked and hot i was under the impression that the big problem was probably that the jacket was too insulated/not breathable enough
 
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Dos-Equis

Dos-Equis

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Right. I was just waiting for the deals to pop up around thanksgiving to upgrade.
 

AmyPJ

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It was a cotton long sleeve shirt. I definitely need to up my baselsyer game and I have a capeline shirt coming in the mail.
Because the inside of my jacket was soaked and hot i was under the impression that the big problem was probably that the jacket was too insulated/not breathable enough
I agree with @Tony S. You wore cotton but think it was the jacket? I have my doubts. @Analisa might have some ideas as to what to look for.
 

Josh Matta

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going to be tough to find one where the hood seperates.

I own two jackets that fit what yours saying IMO but might be too baggy but maybe not if you get the right size.

Strafe neoshell - very waterproof, but downsides are its kinda of airy(not windproof) and doesnt breath as well as my softshell, but breathes way better than any goretex

Flylow HIggins -waterproof enough in all snow, even light rain, wind proof, seems to hold warmth in when I need it but bleed it off when I dont. Most breathable shell I have ever had and I have had tons.

both i guess have a roomy fit, both move nicely, both have huge pit zips for when the breathability isnt enough, but would be great every day shells but if I had to choose one it would be the higgins and Id just avoid the wet days. Niether of their hood remove but neither really pull on me either.
 

Corgski

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It was a cotton long sleeve shirt. I definitely need to up my baselsyer game and I have a capeline shirt coming in the mail.
Because the inside of my jacket was soaked and hot i was under the impression that the big problem was probably that the jacket was too insulated/not breathable enough
Try an internet search for the expression "Cotton kills". Winter hikers and climbers take it pretty seriously. I think the actual shell fabric was the smallest factor in all of this.

I like insulated ski jackets but could not manage without an uninsulated one. I have the Westcomb Apoc, very happy with the breathability and comfort overall.

Do not see powder skirts on jackets as much as I used to. Curious how many (particularly Western) skiers see it as a requirement. Very few on the East coast will care.
 
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Wade

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The cotton shirt seems as though it is a significant part of the issue, but perhaps the larger one is that the OP was looking to buy a shell, but bought an Arcteryx Macai which is not a shell jacket. It is an insulated down jacket.

Maybe look at a Neoshell jacket from Freeride Systems. I don’t think they have powder skirts, but some models are set up so that the hood and collar function separately which sounds as though it would work for you.
 
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Dos-Equis

Dos-Equis

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Try an internet search for the expression "Cotton kills". Winter hikers and climbers take it pretty seriously. I think the actual shell fabric was the smallest factor in all of this.

I like insulated ski jackets but could not manage without an uninsulated one. I have the Westcomb Apoc, very happy with the breathability and comfort overall.

Do not see powder skirts on jackets as much as I used to. Curious how many (particularly Western) skiers see it as a requirement. Very few on the East coast will care.

I definitely get that the cotton is terrible and makes it harder to draw a conclusion about The jacket. The reason I think this is more on the jacket is that my 3 days last (and first) season were all skid in the exact same shirt, but with my casual TNF softshell and a puffy mid layer. I didn’t soak in sweat to nearly the same degree, and I didn’t have put zips on either layer last year! This year I had the the pit zips open all day along with the my front zip down pretty low.

My last day last year it drizzled and the softshell soaked through. Whenever I fell the snow shot up my back and down my pants. This prompted the hunt for a new jacket that would be more weather resistant with ski-specific features.

The goretex really felt like skiing in a trash bag. When I was in the service we had Gore-Tex field jackets that felt similar, but I assumed they were poorly maintained/ being used in too high humidity to take advantage of their breathability. That’s why I’m suspecting Gore-tex just isn’t the material for me.
 
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Dos-Equis

Dos-Equis

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The cotton shirt seems as though it is a significant part of the issue, but perhaps the larger one is that the OP was looking to buy a shell, but bought an Arcteryx Macai which is not a shell jacket. It is an insulated down jacket.

Maybe look at a Neoshell jacket from Freeride Systems. I don’t think they have powder skirts, but some models are set up so that the hood and collar function separately which sounds as though it would work for you.
right, and I recognize the incongruity there. I just found a Macai for ridiculously cheap in the color I wanted and thought it checked all the boxes so I jumped on it. My experience with the Macai is now whats really firmly planted me in the uninsulated shell camp.
 
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Dos-Equis

Dos-Equis

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And I looked at the free ride system jackets. Bit boxy, but I could live with that. Unfortunately I think the powder skirt is a must. One of my main reasons for upgrading my jacket is to get something that keeps the snow out of my pants when I fall.
 

Analisa

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One thing I'd keep in mind, Gore Tex is a series of membranes, not a product in and of itself. Gore makes some requirements around fabric for their Gore Pro membranes, but the rest is up to the manufacturer. Both the outer fabric and inner liner fabric (and whether the latter is bonded or sewn in as a separate layer) impacts the breathe of the garment. So I'd look at the garments themselves than slashing things off the list because they shared a membrane with a military issued jacket that could very easily be a drastically different jacket. (Especially because good venting will trounce any difference in membrane breathe. Nothing on the market transports air & moisture as well as a gaping hole in your jacket). Also, the Arc'teryx does this thing with the Macai that drives me nuts. 3 layer construction is great for shells, but wholly unnecessary for insulated pieces. There's already going to be a separate liner by default to hold the insulation. Bonding that extra layer of protection on the underside of the membrane does little more than appeal to the customer who was told that the best waterproofing is 3 layer. Lower grade fill and synthetic insulation also do little to give a proper indication of how the membrane itself breathes.

It doesn't sound like you need a lot of waterproofing. I'd also consider membrane & fabric durability/maintenance (for example, Neoshell's membrane is PU, that's hydrophobic & only very slowly compromised by dirt/oil/sunscreen. eVent is also super breathable, way more waterproof than Neoshell, but needs frequent washing to hold up long term). Gore Pro is also really breathable, but if you don't need the waterproofing as well, it's easy to find a cheaper option. Some models I'd look at:

-Arc'teryx Cassiar - 3L Gore Tex Performance, but has the removable hood
-Mountain Equipment Dispersion Jacket - has a stowable hood, but only claims to be water resistant. Uses a new Gore Tex product called Infinium. They claim it's only water resistant and not waterproof, but no standard exists separating the two. (REI uses 3k mm hydrostatic pressure, Evo uses a 5k cut off, and the rest of the Gore Tex line is 20k+. They just don't cover it with the "guaranteed to keep you dry" promise, so it could easily be 5-10k and below their bar)
-Anything with Polartec Neoshell (pretty heavily used by Strafe)
-Marmot Castle Peak if you want some insulation (combines Neoshell with a thin layer of Polartec Alpha Direct, a really great midlayer material for regulating temps)
-OR Skyward II jacket (uses a proprietary membrane that's similar to Neoshell in that it's electrospun, both have similar performance)
-Norrona Gore Active Lofoten or Lyngen - both Gore Active with Gore's C-knit backer. The knit's more durable than the typical woven backer used in shells - think t-shirt material vs. button down dress shirt. (It's softer/less crunchy), but it's not as durable or protective.
-Mountain Hardwear High Exposure - same deal as above
-Anything with North Face Futurelight, I think (haven't gotten a sample, good chance I won't). Also electrospun like OR's membrane & neoshell.
 

Ogg

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:golfclap: :golfclap: @Analisa You are wealth of (otherwise almost unattainable) information about outdoor clothing. I have learned more about real world performance from a few of your posts on Pugski than from all of the many hours of research I have tried to do online.
 

Unpiste

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Thanks! Have you found the breathability to be acceptable with the dryQ membrane?
I would say this jacket is one of the more breathable waterproof jackets I’ve used.

But as @Analisa said, a lot is going to depend on the rest of the jacket’s construction. I have an older piece from Mountain Hardware using the same membrane, for instance, that definitely feels like a heavier weight, somewhat less (though still very) breathable construction. It looks like the primary difference between them is the choice of face fabric (and possibly something about the bonding process).
 

Analisa

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@Unpiste - MHW uses 3 different thicknesses of membrane (Dry.Q Core, Active, & Elite). My Barnsie jacket (which uses Core & a really thick polyester dobby) is a total plastic bag. (Suits me fine. Very soggy climate and I hate the feeling of wind cut through my jacket, but sweat gets all sealed in there).
 

Lauren

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@Dos-Equis - The Obermeyer Foraker seems to check all of your boxes, might be worth a look...https://obermeyer.com/catalog/mens/foraker-shell-jacket?v=23165
 

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