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The Active Upper Body

karlo

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A thought came to mind as I watched this video of Mikaela Shiffrin,


watching her upper body, which is always oh-so quiet and disciplined. Then, I thought about what I recently mentioned, in another thread, the matter of utilizing the core. That triggered the thought that the upper body is active, very active. We just don’t see it. And the more we don’t see it, the more active and successful we are at keeping it quiet and disciplined.

So much is written and taught about what the feet, ankles, knees and hips are doing, what the arms are doing when poling. I think the upper body (torso, COM) deserves some attention as to what it is doing. So, here are some things I focus on Doing.

1. I endeavor to keep my upper body perpendicular to the slope. That is a huge reference point to me. I was recently advised to lean forward some, that this is what athletes do. I acknowledged I am very upright, but did not state why. Well, here’s why. Try drawing your feet and legs back to start a turn way-high. Can’t be done nearly as well with the upper body leaning forward. Does it make it more challenging to stay “solid”, in balance, not get thrown. Yes. There lies the work, the Activity. It takes as much attention as all that we do with our legs. In fact, I’d say, more attention, with what the lower does being far more autonomic and reactive to accomplish the goal.

2. That ‘we turn skis or skis turn us thread’, that’s lower body speak. Look at what Mikaela is doing. To me, the focus is the path the upper body is traversing. See that dotted line before you? That’s where you want the upper body traveling, our Purpose. That takes work, the Activity. What we do with the legs and skis is simply the means, which we still need to learn.

3. The upper body glides over the surface of the snow. Ok, that’s not what happens as we dip down and pop up in powder. But, other than that, it is the most efficient, rather than working to reverse downwards, towards-the-snow, momentum in order to rise back up. So, it behoove us to have our upper body moving as if it were in a Rolls Royce, unperturbed by what is below. That takes Active attention to our upper body.

For sure, all that is done and taught about the legs (feet included) is of utmost importance. But, I think we need to tie that closely with an objective, the objective being what we wish our upper body to Do. That upper body, that is “separated” from the lower body, it helps to know more exactly what is expected of that upper body, just as a dance master or choreographer instructs students or performers what is expected of the upper body.

When you ski, what are you thinking of, if anything, with respect to your upper body?
 

Plai

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For upper body: Jacket zipper down the fall line, and arms/hands in front and view.
For lower body: flexible/jelly legs to absorb the small variations in terrain to keep the upper body stable.

For me, in the gym year long preperation (legs, core strength and cardio) are key for this sport.
 

Steve

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I used to think the same thing karlo, that we put all this effort into moving our upper body so it doesn't look like it's moving.

I came to realize that this is false. If you turn your legs, turn the femurs in the hip sockets. DON'T turn the pelvis, then the upper body stays still. So the key is whether actively turning the legs or carving and allowing the legs to turn - the key is to focus on the turning of the legs. The upper body thus doesn't move.

"He makes me think about
All of these extra moves I make
And all this herky-jerky motion
And the bag of tricks it takes
To get me through my working day"

From One Trick Pony by Paul Simon
 

LiquidFeet

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Thanks for starting this thread, @karlo. When I read "active" I think of the spine bending or twisting along its length. Is that what you mean by active?

I especially like your #3 above (Rolls Royce). Here's why...

I pay attention to two lines as I ski. First is the line of the upper body/CoM. Second is the line the feet take.
I work on paying attention to both with equal awareness. Why?
I want that CoM to travel smoothly (your #3), along a line of my choice, at a downhill speed of my choice.

The legs (including the ankles) do several things to yield control of line and speed. They determine the line the feet take, specifically the corridor width.
They also function as the suspension determining how smooth a ride the CoM gets. So the activity of those legs gets a ton of attention.

But there's more.
The relative position of the CoM and the feet is of major importance. Attending to both lines means there's continuous awareness of both positions - good!
That relationship determines if the skis hold the chosen line with the grip needed to deliver the chosen downhill speed (platform angle).

So --- to keep the grip working effectively, either the feet need to move relative to the CoM, or the CoM needs to move relative to the feet.
Sometimes that means doing stuff with the legs to get the CoM to topple downhill (wheee!).
Sometimes that means doing stuff with the legs to get the feet back up under the CoM ... or to send them waay out there to the side.
Sometimes, but rarely, that requires conscious adjustment of the spine to change the torso's tilt (#1 above).
Sometimes it requires doing stuff with the legs to adjust how high the hips are over the snow.

Summary:
Most often I get the best ski-snow response (line and grip) from moving the feet around relative to my CoM.
But to do this I have to pay very close attention to the skis' grip (carving, slipping?), the CoM (smooth travel like a Rolls Royce?) and its position relative to the feet (where are they relative to each other?).
Bob Barnes' video below does a good job of visualizing this relationship. In it he prioritizes the CoM as the frame of reference at the end, as you do in #3.

 
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Mike King

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@karlo, in my development as a skier (and I'd say for most recreational skiers) a big issue is inappropriate activity in the upper body. This can have many elements from initiating turns with upper body rotation to hucking the body down the hill and waiting for the skis to catch up. For most skiers, the issue is to take action out of the upper body -- that is, to get the legs, feet and ankles (the undercarriage if you will) working as the foundation and let the upper body be the outcome of that action.

Watching Shiffrin ski, you can see that she is extremely disciplined in the use of her upper body. Most of the time almost all of the action is in the undercarriage; it is only in the most extreme turns that she anticipates where the upper body must move in order to establish the inclination she need to bend the ski and make the gate. But she is a master of managing the relationship between her center of mass and her base of support -- a feat that few recreational skiers, and many instructors, have achieved.

So, as @LiquidFeet suggests, it's productive to think of the path that the mass will take down the mountain and keeping the flow of that path smooth with as little displacement as possible. To me, that means discipline, not action.

Bob's infinity video is apt, but I also think that it can and does lead people into a trap. They start thinking that they need to extend the legs and allow them to travel away from the body. Often this results in a transition where the upper body is actively dumped into the turn, resulting in inclination, rather than angulation, pressure on the inside ski, pushing the skis away, pressure late in the finish of the turn, and a lack of turn shape.

An alternative is to maintain discipline in the upper body keeping the body over the outside ski, seeking to maintain pressure on the outside ski immediately after edge change, building edge angle and bend in the ski, and letting the body come along for the ride. This generally results in a rounder shape, maximum pressure in the apex of the turn, and grip through the late shaping/early finish of the turn. Note that this does not require much extension. It does require flexion of the inside knee, hip, and ankle.

Once one has developed the necessary discipline in the upper body to keep outside ski appropriately pressured and bent, then it may be time to start allowing more freedom in the movement of the upper body. Watching Shiffrin again, notice how little activity there actually is.

On a separate topic, why were you asked to have more hip flexion? One of the best pieces of advice I ever received in a PSIA clinic was that if someone asks you to change something in your skiing, it is always appropriate to ask how it would affect ski performance.

Mike
 

Mac

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Josh Foster once said in one of his Ski Tips that a lot of people try to over complicate skiing. Trying to pay attention to the line your upper body takes and the line your lower body takes is a step in that direction. If you feel the need to do that, the line your feet takes should be the first consideration. As Lito Tejada-Flores once said, "skiing starts and ends with the feet." Lito had a wonderful way of making something complicated seem simple. Lito's take was that the upper body's primary job was to stay in balance over the turning outside ski. "Do the right thing with your feet, and your upper body will automatically find whatever angles it needs to stay in balance. It just happens." That may be an oversimplification to some people, but that's the one thing that stands out to me watching Shiffrin's turns, is that her upper body is constantly in near perfect balance over her skis. Is her upper body working to achieve that goal? You bet it is. But it is so smooth and natural that it is hardly noticeable.
 

Seldomski

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Another way to phrase it: keep the upper body 'athletic' or with 'functional tension' while keeping your head and shoulders 'consciously oriented.' If you completely relax the core and slouch, that has a negative impact on skiing.
 

Josh Matta

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So I want to commend Karlo on this thread, and say flat out that the premise "the upper body is active, you just cant see it" is correct in skiing like Mikela's in the video.

I want to address Karlo's key numbered question before moving on with some of my own thoughts...


A thought came to mind as I watched this video of Mikaela Shiffrin,




1. I endeavor to keep my upper body perpendicular to the slope. That is a huge reference point to me. I was recently advised to lean forward some, that this is what athletes do. I acknowledged I am very upright, but did not state why. Well, here’s why. Try drawing your feet and legs back to start a turn way-high. Can’t be done nearly as well with the upper body leaning forward. Does it make it more challenging to stay “solid”, in balance, not get thrown. Yes. There lies the work, the Activity. It takes as much attention as all that we do with our legs. In fact, I’d say, more attention, with what the lower does being far more autonomic and reactive to accomplish the goal.

most people have this goal, the issue become in how they accomplish this goal and some cases people perception of how they accomplishing it can be entirely different with outcomes being the same. I personally work on lifting and moving forward the inside part of my pelvis against the rotation of my legs. I also perceive leg steering as opposite of the direction of rotation you would think. IE tip ski right try to turn my feet left.

2. That ‘we turn skis or skis turn us thread’, that’s lower body speak. Look at what Mikaela is doing. To me, the focus is the path the upper body is traversing. See that dotted line before you? That’s where you want the upper body traveling, our Purpose. That takes work, the Activity. What we do with the legs and skis is simply the means, which we still need to learn.

You lost me a little here Karlo......but I think what your talking about is controlling the uppers body location and position though the transition. IMO @LiquidFeet explanation of the infinity move takes care of the locations and path, but if you watch Mikela she is holding counter though the transition and then controlling the unwinding of that built up rotation into the next turn. If you let go all at once you get a pivot(sometime especially in racing and freeskiing that is entirely desirable) but if you steer your feet to the right as your skis tip left you can usually delay and get that nice "float" from one pure arc to the next pure arc.

A real world example of this the PSIA L2 exam task Railroad tracks. Many people who are starting to prepare for L2 havent a clue how to make a clean RR Transition until you get them to perceive their feet turning the other way though transition.

3. The upper body glides over the surface of the snow. Ok, that’s not what happens as we dip down and pop up in powder. But, other than that, it is the most efficient, rather than working to reverse downwards, towards-the-snow, momentum in order to rise back up. So, it behoove us to have our upper body moving as if it were in a Rolls Royce, unperturbed by what is below. That takes Active attention to our upper body.

First I think popping up in powder is a fallacy, yes you can pop up, but you can also retract and keep your body from moving up and down. I do agree that this does require strong functional core tension and taking the first 2 point and putting them together in a blend for one outcome.


the one thing I would like to point out is IMO people will perceive these feeling differently on skis, I personally feel like when I am skiing well, my legs are turning the opposite of which my skis are point towards, my pelvis is working against the rotation of my feet, and lastly my core is strong, tight, tensed but not stiff and rigid. The issue with teaching these concept is not everyone can actually "feel" what their body is doing, and those that "can" might not feel the same thing as you are feeling in your skiing.
 

Seldomski

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You lost me a little here Karlo......but I think what your talking about is controlling the uppers body location and position though the transition. IMO @LiquidFeet explanation of the infinity move takes care of the locations and path, but if you watch Mikela she is holding counter though the transition and then controlling the unwinding of that built up rotation into the next turn. If you let go all at once you get a pivot(sometime especially in racing and freeskiing that is entirely desirable) but if you steer your feet to the right as your skis tip left you can usually delay and get that nice "float" from one pure arc to the next pure arc.

Thanks for this, I think that I have this problem (and others).
 
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karlo

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Really nice responses, sharing personal experiences, mental constructs, etc.

You lost me a little here Karlo......but I think what your talking about is controlling the uppers body location and position though the transition.

in response to #2 of OP,

2. That ‘we turn skis or skis turn us thread’, that’s lower body speak. Look at what Mikaela is doing. To me, the focus is the path the upper body is traversing. See that dotted line before you? That’s where you want the upper body traveling, our Purpose. That takes work, the Activity. What we do with the legs and skis is simply the means, which we still need to learn.

No, I was not referring to the transition. I was referring to include focus on the path of that blue dot in the infinity video that @LiquidFeet shared above. Doing that takes mental focus It also requires precision of what happens below. And, it requires core strength to overcome inertia and do it smoothly. So, I guess what I’m driving at is, as we do what we need to do below, it helps to have a defined purpose and outcome for the upper body. For me, that includes its path (OP’s 2), orientation to slope (OP’s 1), and smoothness of ride (OP’s 3). When instructing, at intermediate level and above, I think it would benefit the student to have these objectives clearly in mind, super-clear.

Thanks for starting this thread, @karlo. When I read "active" I think of the spine bending or twisting along its length. Is that what you mean by active?

No. In fact, not doing that, is Active. Of course, doing it when desired is Active as well, though I cant at the moment think of situations in which I would want to. Hope the reply to Josh helps clarify.

the one thing I would like to point out is IMO people will perceive these feeling differently on skis,

Interesting. Hadn’t thought of that, but for sure. Makes it tricky to convey what should be felt. Then, conveying outcomes, including those of upper body are super important, as is asking reaching out to understand what one is feeling or to learn what another is feeling.
 
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JESinstr

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Josh Foster once said in one of his Ski Tips that a lot of people try to over complicate skiing. Trying to pay attention to the line your upper body takes and the line your lower body takes is a step in that direction. If you feel the need to do that, the line your feet takes should be the first consideration. As Lito Tejada-Flores once said, "skiing starts and ends with the feet." Lito had a wonderful way of making something complicated seem simple. Lito's take was that the upper body's primary job was to stay in balance over the turning outside ski. "Do the right thing with your feet, and your upper body will automatically find whatever angles it needs to stay in balance. It just happens." That may be an oversimplification to some people, but that's the one thing that stands out to me watching Shiffrin's turns, is that her upper body is constantly in near perfect balance over her skis. Is her upper body working to achieve that goal? You bet it is. But it is so smooth and natural that it is hardly noticeable.

:thumb: The modern ski is simply a tool (albeit a sophisticated tool) designed to transport your mass through a 3 dimensional environment. How this tool accomplishes this task is heavily dependent on how well the bulk of one's mass (the upper body) stays in sync with the skis and the path that the skier intends the tool to create. When it appears that the upper body is quiet, it is because our mass is in sync with the tool and when you see upper body movement, it's not.

IMO The fundamental, simple key to syncing up mass and ski is learning to change the mechanics of how we dynamically balance from heel to toe to through the arch.
 

Skisailor

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Two thoughts.

1) I don’t think anyone has addressed one of the points from Karlo’s original post. Talk of the infinity move and the separate paths of the COM and the feet is all well and good, but it focuses mainly (not entirely but most obvioulsy) on the lateral plane. I place a lot of emphasis with students on maintaining a general relationship of the body (the whole enchilada - not just upper or lower) to the skis which is perpendicular in the fore-aft plane. The skis - not the slope. I make the distinction because in powder and crud our skis float in a way which means they may not be parallel to the slope.

This is easy to do on a shallow slope. But it is something entirely different in steep terrain. IMHO, losing this perpendicular relationship is one of the most common causes of problems that even advanced skiers have in steeps. Thinking of this as “leaning forward” is problematic in its implications. I wouldn’t describe it that way. But maintaining that general relationship is critical nonetheless.

2) A lot of folks have talked about keeping the body “over” the outside ski. I agree and I know what I mean when I think about that. But I’m curious to hear how others define “over”. I have encountered confusion about that concept with other instructors.
 

Rod9301

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Two thoughts.

1) I don’t think anyone has addressed one of the points from Karlo’s original post. Talk of the infinity move and the separate paths of the COM and the feet is all well and good, but it focuses mainly (not entirely but most obvioulsy) on the lateral plane. I place a lot of emphasis with students on maintaining a general relationship of the body (the whole enchilada - not just upper or lower) to the skis which is perpendicular in the fore-aft plane. The skis - not the slope. I make the distinction because in powder and crud our skis float in a way which means they may not be parallel to the slope.

This is easy to do on a shallow slope. But it is something entirely different in steep terrain. IMHO, losing this perpendicular relationship is one of the most common causes of problems that even advanced skiers have in steeps. Thinking of this as “leaning forward” is problematic in its implications. I wouldn’t describe it that way. But maintaining that general relationship is critical nonetheless.

2) A lot of folks have talked about keeping the body “over” the outside ski. I agree and I know what I mean when I think about that. But I’m curious to hear how others define “over”. I have encountered confusion about that concept with other instructors.

Interesting, keeping the budd perpendicular to the skis.
I know what you're trying to say.
But since we don't ski with legs extended, straight line from the boots to upper body to the Head, it's a little more complicated.
There's angulation involved.

I think more about having the weight over the outside ski and centered or with a front or back bias, depending on what i want the ski to do.
 
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karlo

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But I’m curious to hear how others define “over”. I have encountered confusion about that concept with other instructors.

I think of “over the outside ski” being a matter of COM stacked over the outside ski along a force vector.
 

Uke

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Rather than talk about being 'over the outside ski' I tend to guide my students to the sensation of keeping the 'feet under the body'. For me and my students 'feet under' seems clearer than 'body over'

uke.
 

jimtransition

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I think quite a few commonly used instructing terms such as 'weight over the outside ski' become inaccurate at higher performance levels, and as karlo said, a better way to visualise or explain it, is as balancing against the forces created through the turn, the only time MS's feet are under her body is at transition.

I like the title of the thread, and an interesting thing about watching world cup skiers is that their upper bodies are way more active, and show much more movement than a recreational skier or an instructor, part of this is obviously due to the nature of skiing in a course (hitting gates), recovering from mistakes etc, but also you see a lot more movement of the hands in order to aid in inclination and angulation.

A cool thing I have been playing with is trying to replicate the skate like movement you see in a lot of WC skiers, with the new outside hand moving back in the initiation to pressure the outside ski super early. Has anyone else tried the same?

Stills from here
 

Skisailor

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Interesting, keeping the budd perpendicular to the skis.
I know what you're trying to say.
But since we don't ski with legs extended, straight line from the boots to upper body to the Head, it's a little more complicated.
There's angulation involved.

I think more about having the weight over the outside ski and centered or with a front or back bias, depending on what i want the ski to do.

Yes the body will have angles at ankle knee and hip. I’m not saying we have to ski with straight legs. :) But as a general proposition, if we draw 2 parallel vertical lines as boundaries within which the body resides, those lines should be perpendicular to the skis.
 

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