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Teaching Turn Initiation to Upper Int. & Advanced Skiers

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
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Nov 13, 2015
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Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
It's just the way it is. Those clueless beginners assume they will be able to "ski" after that initial lesson. This puts pressure on instructors to give them something that will allow them to turn left and right and come to a stop on terrain labelled green, all in 1.5 hours. In rental boots that don't fit. In a group lesson of up to 8 people. On dysfunctional beginner terrain carved out of limited overall acreage, when most of the flat areas near the base lodge have gone to condos because that's fast money to the shareholders.

What could possibly go wrong?
What could go right? @Nancy Hummel had a student show up for a lesson who said: "I'm a good skier -- I just can't turn or stop."

Frankly, the school should not offer a product where there is so little chance of success.

Mike
 
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David Chan

getting after it!
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Nov 13, 2015
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115
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San Francisco, CA
Teaching separation to adult skiers is difficult.
Their hips turn with their feet, and everything above the hips does what the hips do.
But it's worth teaching, despite the difficulty.
I wish PSIA would push instructors to teach it in the first day beginner lesson.
Short FDB lessons in the east (1.5 to 2 hours) often do not provide enough time for that, regrettably.

I Introduce it during our my boot work with a client. (first time lesson). When we are just walking around to get used to having our feet in hard boots, We walk in circles, figure 8's etc.. I introduce the turning of our feet by using the whole leg femurs turning in the hip socket. We don't dwell on it too much just because of how much info we need to dispense to the client in a first time lesson that's only 1.5-1.75hrs but it's introduced, early on.

Trying to get this into our training for our new instructors too.
 

David Chan

getting after it!
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San Francisco, CA
When teaching beginners, as soon as they begin making those very first wedge turns, I immediately introduce the concept of separation, but I have to admit, there are only a very few instructors in our ski school who do this. In the meantime, we end up producing hoards of lower intermediate skiers whose whole body rotates in the direction of the skis with every turn - something which we then have to work on changing later on.

Is it femur rotation in the hip socket?? Heck no - not yet

I start even earlier, during the time we are just getting the feel of being in boots. And why not femur rotation in the hip socket? You don't have to do it perfectly to get them to feel/realize that movement. You may even lose it when they start sliding but it's been introduced and now something to build on in the future.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
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Wanaka, New Zealand
Agree. It's just the way it is.

Those clueless beginners assume they will be able to "ski" after that initial lesson. This puts pressure on instructors to give them something that will allow them to turn left and right and come to a stop on terrain labelled green accessed by the easiest lift next to the beginner area, all in 1.5 hours. In rental boots that don't fit. In a group lesson of up to 8 people. On dysfunctional beginner terrain carved out of limited overall acreage, when most of the flat areas near the base lodge have gone to condos because that's fast money to the shareholders.

What could possibly go wrong?

Big White in BC, Canada, guarantees that a 1st timer will be able to glide, stop and make gentle turns left/right, all on 1st timer terrain, within a 2 hour lesson. If the student cannot then the next lesson is no charge. At least that was the case 2 seasons back when I last skied there.

Big White have a 55% 1st timer retention rate vs an industry average of 18%.
 

James

Out There
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Dec 2, 2015
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24,452
Have them stand on a 2x4 under the skis under the foot. You can then point both their skis at the same time with your hands, to left and right. It's interesting that when you tell them you're going to point left say, and you told them to do nothing, they'll move the whole body that way. It's ingrained for many people. So then you coach them to separate.
Usually, there's no 2x4 around, so I'll have them stand on my pole grip. One under each ski under the foot. Works pretty well if the snow isn't too soft.
 

Nancy Hummel

Ski more, talk less.
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Snowmass
Teaching separation to adult skiers is difficult.
Their hips turn with their feet, and everything above the hips does what the hips do.
But it's worth teaching, despite the difficulty.
I wish PSIA would push instructors to teach it in the first day beginner lesson.
Short FDB lessons in the east (1.5 to 2 hours) often do not provide enough time for that, regrettably.

The question is why is teaching separation difficult? I submit that there are a few common issues:

1. Stance
2. Inability to release the edges
3. Too much weight on inside ski which leads to #2.
4. Lack of knowledge.

Deal with the above items and people will have the ability to turn or tip their legs. If you don’t deal with the above, you can do all sorts of drills to teach separation but you are not addressing the cause.
 

James

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It's difficult also because that's how people move. While body. Plus when fear kicks in, throw the top around the bottom will follow. Hopefully.
 

mister moose

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Killington
Short FDB lessons in the east (1.5 to 2 hours) often do not provide enough time for that, regrettably.

I agree that 1.5 to 2 hour lessons are not enough time for a first day beginner lesson.

If you're in a soccer league, sure. If you have never done anything athletic, not even a bicycle, never climbed a tree or walked a railroad rail, not even stairs at the office or backyard softball, then after 1.5 to 2 hours you will be exhausted, be struggling with the basics, and anything longer will be a net negative.
 

Nancy Hummel

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If you're in a soccer league, sure. If you have never done anything athletic, not even a bicycle, never climbed a tree or walked a railroad rail, not even stairs at the office or backyard softball, then after 1.5 to 2 hours you will be exhausted, be struggling with the basics, and anything longer will be a net negative.

I disagree. A 5 hour lesson that is properly paced with a lunch break is doable for most people. There is adequate time for explanation and practice.
 

abcd

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Can you name any human activity where students can effectively learn by turning up to lessons sporadically, run by different teachers, with totally different fellow students, with a random learning environment, and where student spend most of the time between lessons re-enforcing bad habits?

I think I actually can.
How about martial arts ? Instructors can rotate, but still teach same movement patterns and same fundamentals. It's not a way to become a professional MMA fighter, but there is certain level of consistency that allows students to progress from beginner levels without feeling constantly confused.
Or yoga, People learn movement patterns in a group setting with different instructors on Mondays and Wednesdays and yet feel like they are taught the same thing.

The tricky part is re-enforcement of bad habits between the lessons. Unfortunately, in all my time taking group lessons I've never heard a ski instructor say "beware that going on the steeps will wake up your bad habits. I know that steeps are more fun, but try to make sure to spend half of the time enjoying the greens. This is where you can solidify the skills we learned today".

@abcd have you considered ski camps as a way to obtain more consistent feedback in a forum where you have several days to work on it?
Yes, working with the same instructor during the season and taking camps several times a year now.
I also took a group lessons this season, I was bundled together with 3 students who wanted to ski steep greens and blues. I was told to push with my new outside foot to start the turn and to stand up tall in between the turns. Exactly same things I was taught when I started and that I recently spent 4 years trying to replace with new movement patterns (not very successfully). The other 3 students were very happy with what they have learned and commented how useful the lesson was.
 

abcd

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I find CSIA approach to teaching separation to be liberating - natural result of being balanced over the outside ski

 

geepers

Skiing the powder
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I think I actually can.
How about martial arts ? Instructors can rotate, but still teach same movement patterns and same fundamentals. It's not a way to become a professional MMA fighter, but there is certain level of consistency that allows students to progress from beginner levels without feeling constantly confused.
Or yoga, People learn movement patterns in a group setting with different instructors on Mondays and Wednesdays and yet feel like they are taught the same thing.

The tricky part is re-enforcement of bad habits between the lessons. Unfortunately, in all my time taking group lessons I've never heard a ski instructor say "beware that going on the steeps will wake up your bad habits. I know that steeps are more fun, but try to make sure to spend half of the time enjoying the greens. This is where you can solidify the skills we learned today".

Reckon a large part of success at martial arts or yoga is going to lessons Mondays and Wednesdays many weeks in a row. And the learning environment is pretty much the same every time. Image if one lesson the floor was covered with an oil slick, the next it's knee deep in playdough and the time after that there's a fog machine. I just have a feeling that there would be different approaches in slippery, sticky and hidden situations.

I have witnessed instructors respectfully suggest that their students practice what they'd just learnt on mild terrain to embed the skills. Which is about all they can do. I've also watched those same students over-terrain themselves 1st run after the lesson.:doh:

One of the things we don't hear: "Took a karate lesson. After that I went out looking for a knife fight. Got stabbed and cut up. Karate lessons aren't much use.":cool:
 

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
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One of the things we don't hear: "Took a karate lesson. After that I went out looking for a knife fight. Got stabbed and cut up. Karate lessons aren't much use.":cool:


That's actually really funny! Thanks! ogsmile
 
Thread Starter
TS
Suzski

Suzski

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101
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Metro DC
Teaching separation to adult skiers is difficult.
Their hips turn with their feet, and everything above the hips does what the hips do.
But it's worth teaching, despite the difficulty.

Yes, this is what we see in a lot of folks who learned as adults. We'll often do "dry land" positioning in the bar après to try and demo what separation (and angulation and other stuff) should look like. Sometimes it is easier to grasp a concept when you're not on skis -- the same way it is easier to demo swimming stroke mechanics on dry land. Obviously, the position won't be precise but every now and then it is good enough to get the concept across - especially in a setting where folks aren't afraid of tipping over (though that can be compromised by the amount of wine consumed). I love @James ' idea of the 2X4 or pole grips. Gonna try that one.
 
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abcd

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That's actually really funny! Thanks! ogsmile
There is a channel on YouTube called "martial arts journey". The guy is an aikido black belt who was practicing and teaching for 13 years, took a friendly sparring with an MMA practitioner and realized that nothing worked. He goes into great length explaining how hard it is to admit that you spent 10+ years of your life on something that just doesn't work and how few people are willing to admit it and come up with different justifications
 

T-Square

Terry
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Teaching separation to adult skiers is difficult.
Their hips turn with their feet, and everything above the hips does what the hips do.
But it's worth teaching, despite the difficulty.
I wish PSIA would push instructors to teach it in the first day beginner lesson.
Short FDB lessons in the east (1.5 to 2 hours) often do not provide enough time for that, regrettably.

I use these to introduce the feeling of upper and lower body separation. They are Perfect Push-up without the handles.

6ACE926F-8068-4348-B493-5FD5A4751DC0.jpeg


Then the student stands on them and learns to twist their feet without moving the upper body. In boots, in shoes, or sock feet. Works well to introduce the feeling in a controlled environment.

Here’s quick video I just put together showing the movement.


For some reason I’ve earned the nickname “Inspector Gadget" in the locker room. :huh:
 

JESinstr

Lvl 3 1973
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May 4, 2017
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Hope everyone understands that separation in the pursuit of active rotary (gadgets above) is different than resultant separation caused by angulation which @abcd Contributed.
 

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