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To include circular movement?
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Teaching Turn Initiation to Upper Int. & Advanced Skiers
- Thread starter Suzski
- Start date
To include circular movement?
Precisely.
To elaborate a little, I am talking about a small pivot, maybe 20 degrees. Even if your skis get caught up some, you are OK because you aren't going to keep pivoting. In a normal tipped turn, you have to be patient and wait for the forces to build on your edges and bend the skis. The starting pivot means that when you tip the skis, they are already slightly across the direction of travel, so the edges load up and bend the skis right away. It edits out the patience phase. Starting to turn earlier means less peak force is needed for the same average force, and you don't sink in as deep.
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Nothing changed direction other than the skis. The person went straight down the hill. Your car analogy isn’t. The appropriate car analogy would be you go straight at the corner because of solid ice on the road, yet the car spins and is pointing 90 degrees to the side. It’s fair to say, as the accident report would, you didn’t make the turn.So the definition of a turn excludes a change in direction of around 90 degrees onto a new tangent? Must remember that when I pivot my car around a street corner.
There wasno steering force applied to the car to change it’s path. No turn.
Not sure why this is so controversial. You can go straight down a slope pointing your skis left and right. The skis go through 90 degrees to 180 and yet you’ve never made a turn. It’s a pivot slip excercise. If the trail suddenly turned, you’d go in the woods. Skis 90 degrees to your path, just like the car on ice. You never applied a steering force.
Any beginner senses this and is freaked out when their path isn’t altered. They have no doubt that they are not turning! It’s quite common to have their downhill ski st 90 degrees to their drift downhill. Nothing is happening! “I’m not turning!” There’s no steering force applied because they are severely leaned uphill on their other ski.
They know they’re not turning, yet, others debate.
You can certainly turn the body by unwinding the anticipation. You don’t need your jacket pull.
But in this case, there’s a force applied from the ground through the pole and to the arm. Note the pole/arm is well behind the heel. If it was ”for balance” you could just place it in front. But this would block rotation.
Basic ma here. Beliefs get in the way.
It’s been demoed with the block since the first book in 1998.
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I'm beginning to understand how Common Core Mathematics was developed.
RE: Pivot
There must be some force other than horizontal friction applied to allow the driver to make the desired movement of the pivot, or is that a brushed turn and a pivot is a rotation which would be indefinite in an zero gravity vacuum?.
RE: Pivot
There must be some force other than horizontal friction applied to allow the driver to make the desired movement of the pivot, or is that a brushed turn and a pivot is a rotation which would be indefinite in an zero gravity vacuum?.
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Yup, it's definitely the middle of August.
Momentarily back to the OP.... I've re-read the 2014 PSIA Alpine Manual to find the official answer. Took notes. Curious. The last section of the manual talks about what to teach beginners, intermediates, and advanced skiers. There is a clear intention to teach the same turn mechanics at all three levels. The manual encourages the instructor to "expand or restructure the material to tailor it" as needed, so these progressions are not set in stone.
It took some time to pick through these pages but I'm glad I did, I think. Maybe. A committee must have written these sections of the manual since the wording keeps changing and some sentences have piled on extra phrases and clauses. Simpler and more consistent language would have been better. I had to decide to either quote the manual (very very many words, even more than I have here, with changing wording describing the same movements), or paraphrase. I decided to paraphrase. I left some stuff out. This is a long post, but I couldn't figure out how to shorten it more than this.
The OP's answer should be somewhere in here. I've put in red the parts that applied more directly to initiation than to other phases of the turn.
BEGINNERS
....Gliding Wedge
.........Keep skis in a narrow wedge.
.........Flatten skis.
.........Transfer weight to new outside ski.
.........Turn both feet and legs (steer, rotate) to shape the turn.
...Wedge Christie
.........Begin with a parallel traverse.
.........Flatten both skis.
.........Then steer (rotate) both skis into a narrow wedge.
.........Transfer weight to outside ski.
.........Steer (rotate) lightened inside ski to match outside ski as turn continues.
.........Work on earlier weight transfer and earlier matching.
INTERMEDIATES
...Parallel Turn initiation (teach this in isolation with garlands)
.........Begin with a parallel traverse.
.........Extend new outside leg to move the CoM downhill and to flatten both skis.
.........Actively steer (rotate) both skis as they flatten to point downhill.
.........Work on keeping skis parallel.
...Basic Parallel Turns
.........Extend new outside leg to move the CoM downhill and flatten both skis.
.........Transfer weight to new outside ski.
.........Flex the new inside leg to enable active steering (rotation) of the lightened inside ski to keep up with the turning outside ski.
.........Actively steer (rotate) both flattening skis to point them downhill.
.........Allow CoM to move inside the turn to edge the skis at the fall line.
...Pivot Slips (to teach separation and pivoting - while unweighting with extension)
.........Sideslip down the fall line, with body facing downhill.
.........Extend quickly with both feet and legs to unweight.
.........Pivot both lightened skis together.
.........Keep upper body facing downhill through the entire maneuver.
.........Quote: "By slowing the pivoting action and increasing the edge angle to create steering at turn initiation, students can use pivot slips to develop round turns."
...Hockey Stops (to teach separation and pivoting - while unweighting with flexion)
........Begin with a straight run.
........Quickly flex legs to unweight.
........Then pivot skis to point across the hill.
........Keep upper body facing downhill through the entire maneuver.
........Sideslip a short distance.
........Tip skis sharply to stop with an edge set.
...Fan Progression (to teach how to control bottom of turn with edging in addition to steering)
........Begin with shallow traverse on parallel edged skis.
........Vary the curved path by increasing or decreasing edge angle.
........Weight on downhill ski.
........Repeat with increasingly steep starts.
........Use edging more and steering (rotation) less to control the curved path.
...Railroad Tracks (to teach tipping instead of rotation at initiation)
........Begin with straight run down the fall line.
........Goal is to turn without skidding, tails following tips.
........Tip skis together while maintaining constant stance width.
........Transfer weight to the new outside ski.
........Minimize steering (rotation) of the skis in order to use tipping to control turn shape.
...Carved Turns (the tails follow the tips; the skis do not skid)
........Quote: "refine skills and skill blends performed in basic parallel turns."
........Quote: "direct pressure toward the tips as the body moves toward the turn's apex."
........Tip both skis together.
........Transfer weight to the new outside ski.
........Actively keep inside ski matching outside ski.
........Use angulation to manipulate edge angles.
ADVANCED SKIERS
...Quote: "skills presented here are based on a carved turn outcome"
...Advanced Carved Turns
........Refine and develop accuracy and precision of a carved turn.
........Increase range and intensity of movements at higher speeds.
........Carve turns in a variety of situations, terrain, and conditions.
........initiation: "skier extends the outside leg, or both legs, directing the body toward the apex of the upcoming turn."
...Short Radius Carved Turns, Long Radius Carved Turns, Bumps, Steeps, Ice, and Powder are discussed in the advanced section but I'm leaving these out of this summary as they don't apply directly to the OP's question.
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Given we are skiing on a slope then there are forces affecting the path of the skier when the skis are flattened:
1. Removal of the reaction force from edging the skis in the traverse (standing still - traverse at zero velocity)
2. Gravity
If we stand on the hill and roll a snowball across the slope its path will change from across to down. It turned. If the initial speed was high and the slope gentle it would make a big arc. If the initial speed was low and the slope steep it would turn quickly, no blocking pole required.
Have had a CSIA course leader demo that exact snowball roll in discussing turn initiation.
None of this excludes the use of edges. Guy H below wasn't the snowball rolling dude but where, exactly, does his turn initiation begin in these turns?
Enough!!! do it this way, do it that way.....
Its not that the advice is bad, it’s great for the most part (given by very knowledge and experienced people), the issue is conveyance to the student.
I am going to tell you about the end all be all teaching tool. In all the threads and all the information/solution I’ve read (and contributed) despite having personally seen it used for a 1-1/2 years on a weekly basis and having it demonstrated on me personally, no one has mention this. So please bear with me.
The biggest issue with coaching/instructing is getting the student to do the correct action despite correct demonstration and instruction. This is caused by interpretation of your action and trying to copy it, as they try to copy, you correct, the wider the variation until they stumble upon what you want them to do. Some get it quickly, some not so.
In swimming this device was being used with my son is a version of this:
https://theraceclub.com/shop/training-equipment/trc-swim-speaker-full-set/
It allowed instant feedback and detailed correction and coaching as the coach “in your head” so to speak. Range at least 50m with head below the surface of the water, so on the slopes should be no issue. No yelling, just reminder before, feed back during, praise after. Works sorta like this.
Demonstrate action. Let action happen and continue. During this time words like:
No, yes, more, less, better, harder, softer, lean, head down, up and so on are interjected as actions happen during, prior to, or after. Instant feed back, instant tweak, instant correction.
So instead of developing multiple drills to get a concept across, how about you look at teaching the correct concept to start and tweaking it REAL TIME till the action is correct. End result IMHO is faster and better taught in this manner, it just a function of coaches/instructors acceptance, understanding and adapting to this tool. The students seem to adapt as you are in their head so to speak (instantly).
I apologize for not having shared this sooner, just didn’t make the link to skiing (adaption from one sport to another) my bad.
Hopefully, my little rant written at 5 in the morning actually added something new and useful to all, without upsetting those that already coach/instruct extremely well.
Its not that the advice is bad, it’s great for the most part (given by very knowledge and experienced people), the issue is conveyance to the student.
I am going to tell you about the end all be all teaching tool. In all the threads and all the information/solution I’ve read (and contributed) despite having personally seen it used for a 1-1/2 years on a weekly basis and having it demonstrated on me personally, no one has mention this. So please bear with me.
The biggest issue with coaching/instructing is getting the student to do the correct action despite correct demonstration and instruction. This is caused by interpretation of your action and trying to copy it, as they try to copy, you correct, the wider the variation until they stumble upon what you want them to do. Some get it quickly, some not so.
In swimming this device was being used with my son is a version of this:
https://theraceclub.com/shop/training-equipment/trc-swim-speaker-full-set/
It allowed instant feedback and detailed correction and coaching as the coach “in your head” so to speak. Range at least 50m with head below the surface of the water, so on the slopes should be no issue. No yelling, just reminder before, feed back during, praise after. Works sorta like this.
Demonstrate action. Let action happen and continue. During this time words like:
No, yes, more, less, better, harder, softer, lean, head down, up and so on are interjected as actions happen during, prior to, or after. Instant feed back, instant tweak, instant correction.
So instead of developing multiple drills to get a concept across, how about you look at teaching the correct concept to start and tweaking it REAL TIME till the action is correct. End result IMHO is faster and better taught in this manner, it just a function of coaches/instructors acceptance, understanding and adapting to this tool. The students seem to adapt as you are in their head so to speak (instantly).
I apologize for not having shared this sooner, just didn’t make the link to skiing (adaption from one sport to another) my bad.
Hopefully, my little rant written at 5 in the morning actually added something new and useful to all, without upsetting those that already coach/instruct extremely well.
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The way I look at it, Guy's turns start when he extends his uphill leg/new outside leg. This gets him very tall, and his whole body as a unit starts to topple across the skis because the flattening old outside ski no longer supports his body's uphill position. Others are saying the turns start when his body topples enough to put skis on their new edges, which he allows to happen early in the turn above the fall line.
Many skiers, as @James has pointed out, do not want to allow their bodies to do this toppling.
Why do I like to think of release as the start of the new turn? @JESinstr pointed out upthread that it's partly because of frame of reference. I agree. From the skier's point of view in real time, the release is what that skier does to start the new turn. I teach release to almost every skier that I encounter in a lesson. It's a big deal. The other reason has to do with turns that start while still on old edges. Those turns (wedge turns and parallel turns) work a little like that snowball rolling downhill and a little like a pivot slip ... the skis can turn without the influence of the downhill edges.
Thread drift: Guy's skis skid downhill on those new edges above the fall line because he is intentionally not establishing a sufficient platform angle to get a grip. Had he angulated enough to get that angle, he'd stop skidding.
That’s a cool idea. On HPDE days, instructors use helmet intercoms to communicate to students, which is pretty much essential.
So Mikaela's got it all wrong then?
One could easily make the argument that video is perhaps the single most important tool for objective feedback.
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The path of the ball changed, it “turned” to follow the slope. Now what? Oops. Straight down the hill till a sidehill redirects it or someone jumps in the way.
Good example:
You keep mixing up in the discussion initiation and “turn”. Have you yet settled on what a turn is for a skier? Btw, it would be more interesting to discuss fall line turn, mogul turns, where no significant path change occurs. Plus, Is a “Hop Turn” really a turn?
Go back to your Csia clinic leader and make them show you how in a sideslip the tips will seek the fall line. Assuming that’s what you’ve been told. They don’t. It’s a very common myth that gets promulgated with falling leaf all the time.
Leaning fore doesn’t do it either. (Though it takes effort to just go forward and not slightly downhill. Experienced skiers usually have ingrained move downhill). There’s always a slight bit of rotational force somewhere. Takes almost nothing. You can basically look downhill often and the body will twist enough to move the tips.
As for your turn definition, my suggestion is to go help beginners. When they head for the lift corral at the bottom of the slope, one ski at right angles to their path, argue with them about whether they made a turn or not. They know instantly whether they can alter their path or not. Very simple.
Guy Hetherington is essentially doing a stivot. He starts the process by releasing the old edges and steering the skis. He could easily modulate some turning action as opposed to pure drift if he wanted. Pure drifting is not a turn, you’re essentially the ball following the slope. A drift turn either uses pure drift then redirect or some turning force during the drift. Like a car on a dirt track.
Be great for spouses who attempt this all the time, but yell. You can’t hear well very far so it’s just yelling. Being in their ear, I’m betting it would make it worse.
In general it could work. I’m not convinced it’s that great. Could also make things worse. Skiing is not swimming and the surface is always changing for one. I think it would usually be better after the movement and before the next attempt to discuss.
Is she really turning?
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Here is my summary of the notes I posted above in answer to the original question posed by @Suzski 18 pages ago:
"...is there a set PSIA method for teaching initiation or is it skier-dependent? ... is there a sequence, i.e., ankles/COM/hips or are movements ideally timed simultaneously?"
Gliding Wedge, Wedge Christies, Basic Parallel Turns ... These all have 2-3 elements blended together for initiation.
---flatten skis and transfer weight (for Basic Parallel this is done in one movement - new outside leg extension)
---steer (rotate) both skis to point downhill
RR Tracks, Carved Turns, Advanced Carved Turns ... These build on this same blend as above, so that nothing has to be unlearned. However, and this is a very big however, intentional tipping is added and steering (rotating) is reduced and/or totally subtracted.
---transfer weight by extending the outside leg
---tip both skis together, enough to get beyond flat and onto new edges
---allow the body to move across the skis to the inside of the new turn
---reduce steering (rotation of skis) to zero so that tails follow tips
All the above PSIA initiations involve extend-to-release. None of the turns involve flex-to-release.
Note in the long post that flex-to-release is taught with hockey stops but not indicated for basic parallel or carved turns.
Note also that flexing/shortening the new inside leg is not mentioned as a complementary action to extending the new outside leg.
Flex-to-release is not described in the sections on other turns included in the advanced section, but which I did not cover in that long post.
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No idea why so much umbrage is being taken in some of the more recent posts, but it is page 19 in August.
Who said anything about tips turning downhill under auto-pilot? Or even starting in a sideslip? Start in a traverse. Trace the path taken by the skier's CoM. Which will turn down the hill the same way bullet drop occurs.
Yep, seen the stuff on tips - like John Fahey ski physics vid [which seems to have been taken down]. Never heard a CSIA person claim the tips will automatically seek the fall line. Although we can assume that an upper int or adv skier will keep the right bits pointed the right way. Mostly.
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Moving tips WILL seek the fall line if the skis are flat and the rider is balanced fore/aft.
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