Teaching Turn Initiation to Upper Int. & Advanced Skiers

[markojp]

Then what would we post about?

It's August AND page 17 of a ski instruction thread.... everything sticks to the wall, and just about anything will fly.

 

[Steve]

It's August AND page 17 of a ski instruction thread.... everything sticks to the wall, and just about anything will fly.

Well not to be argumentative, but I disagree.

It's page 18.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I am late to this thread but...
It has always been my credo that “Any movement is better than no movement” ie stiff & static will get you nowhere, while too much movement can be toned down or redirected...

Many ways to initiate a turn either passively or actively. Some are more efficient than others & often the best choice is dependent on the situation which can change from turn to turn. It is obvious that the best technical skiers use a “flex to release” transition as a default but that may not always be the best way for everyone all the time or even the best way for many to progress. It is better to experiment with all & apply the best solution to the particular situation whether it is for yourself or your students.

I was also raised with the idea that we should never teach anything that will later have to be unlearned & that if we take something away we had better replace it with something better. What I learned is that instead of “unlearning” or “taking away” we can remold, redirect, develop & enhance what is already there.



There was a time when PSIA described 4 phases of the turn beginning/ending with a “Preparation Phase”...
View attachment 78447

. Yes, Because after a turn, we would "rise to a new traverse", so we had to prepare for the next one

 

[ToddW]

I’ve watched people from that group attempt flex to release on Westwall at Abasin and fail due to being too far uphill.

What's your point? Few people ski West Wall well. Not many accomplish on snow what they plan in their minds.

Why not turn this into a constructive comment and give a lesson plan or tip for not "being too far uphill" during release on a pitch like West Wall and how you would help a skier later progress to even steeper slopes after that.

PS I don't have my secret codebook handy. What group of people were you singling out as "people from that group?" It sounds like a very 2019 way to drive a wedge between people who just love to ski.

 

[geepers]

But it isn't true. Many turns start with flattening old edges but not with new edges. Just flattening old edges and doing something to get those flattish skis to turn to point downhill can start a turn.

Like this... No new edge yet the skis change direction.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The top of any pivot slip can be morphed into the top of a bona fide turn. On flattening old edges.
That exercise @geepers just posted is a stationary two-footed release. Harder than a pivot slip for sure given the lack of momentum.
The two-footed release also can be morphed into the top of a turn. Again on flattening old edges.
And of course there are wedge turns which happen on old edges since they never change.

 

[rocdoc]

Technical discussions like this are very useful for us humble amateurs, but holy smokes, can you guys dissect stuff to death There is a lot of useful stuff in here though.
Now, does anyone know the average ground speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

 

[T-Square]

... ...
Now, does anyone know the average ground speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

It depends on air density, temperature, altitude, humidity, and atmospheric pressure. Also, if there is a hawk on it’s 6 o’clock.

 

[JESinstr]

It has occurred to me that all (ok most...some) of us have fallen into the ole trap of not declaring Frame of Reference when posting our views.
Take this clip of Shiffrin and put it in slo mo and just watch the first 20 seconds. From the MA Observer FOR that I have been basing my opinions on, a physical state of turning is not initiated until her new edges engage the surface. But to @LiquidFeet 's point of view, from Shiffrin's FOR she is initiating the second she begins her inside leg extension....maybe even a bit before.

 

[geepers]

Technical discussions like this are very useful for us humble amateurs, but holy smokes, can you guys dissect stuff to death There is a lot of useful stuff in here though.
Now, does anyone know the average ground speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

African or European?

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
Now, does anyone know the average ground speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

11 meters per second, or 24 miles an hour

 

[mdf]

I never thought about it before, but I think what matches common English best is if "a" turn is from the end of one transition to the beginning of the next transition, and the transition is not part of either the preceding or following turn.

Two springs ago at Loveland I learned about the value of getting to a true neutral in deep, manky, leg-breaker snow on steep pitches. Neutral gives you lot's of options. And an option that helps there -- and I'm not sure if this is how it was phased or just how I internalized it --- is to do a little pivot before you start the turn. [That speeds up the initiation, which helps avoid digging a deep, entrapping, trench in the belly of the turn.]

 

[James]

PS I don't have my secret codebook handy.

Yeah you do. One post in over 6 months and pick up that? That’s nsa level monitoring.
The answer is you can’t wait till you get to the transition to be over your skis. You have to start moving out of the old turn towards the new. Otherwise you can flex your downhill leg to your ear and you still won’t go downhill because you’re on the uphill.

It has occurred to me that all (ok most...some) of us have fallen into the ole trap of not declaring Frame of Reference when posting our views.
Take this clip of Shiffrin and put it in slo mo and just watch the first 20 seconds. From the MA Observer FOR that I have been basing my opinions on, a physical state of turning is not initiated until her new edges engage the surface. But to @LiquidFeet 's point of view, from Shiffrin's FOR she is initiating the second she begins her inside leg extension....maybe even a bit before

There’s no difference really. More advanced semantics. You already covered it. You have to start actions before the skis move you. Like @4ster ’s video above, he does all the workbefore tbe skis engage the snow, they hit the snow, hookup and he’s redirected in a turn.

Like this... No new edge yet the skis change direction.

A two footed release is not a turn. The skier is going straight down the hill. It could be the beginning of a turn or just the start of travelling straight down the hill. Just like a sideslip, where you then point the skis downhill. It’s the beginning of a turn - perhaps, if you continue and then engage new edges. Otherwise you go straight down.

By this reasoning a pivot slip would be a continual series of turns. Yet it’s not a turn.

Also, the main rotating force of the body in that release demo is the blocking pole plant. Do it without the pole, it takes a loooong time to come around. There’s a good reason to use the pole.

 

[mdf]

Also, the main rotating force of the body there is the blocking pole plant. Do it without the pole, it takes a loooong time to come around. There’s a good reason to use the pole.

Ya gotta admit, this one looks a lot less blatant than that other video.

 

[Rod9301]

Yeah you do. One post in over 6 months and pick up that? That’s nsa level monitoring.
The answer is you can’t wait till you get to the transition to be over your skis. You have to start moving out of the old turn towards the new. Otherwise you can flex your downhill leg to your ear and you still won’t go downhill because you’re on the uphill.


There’s no difference really. More advanced semantics. You already covered it. You have to start actions before the skis move you. Like @4ster ’s video above, he does all the workbefore tbe skis engage the snow, they hit the snow, hookup and he’s redirected in a turn.


A two footed release is not a turn. The skier is going straight down the hill. It could be the beginning of a turn or just the start of travelling straight down the hill. Just like a sideslip, where you then point the skis downhill. It’s the beginning of a turn - perhaps, if you continue and then engage new edges. Otherwise you go straight down.

By this reasoning a pivot slip would be a continual series of turns. Yet it’s not a turn.

Also, the main rotating force of the body in that release demo is the blocking pole plant. Do it without the pole, it takes a loooong time to come around. There’s a good reason to use the pole.

Not true, you can do a two footed release without poles in the same amount of time and space. The pole plant is for balance only, it's not blocking.

 

[James]

Ya gotta admit, this one looks a lot less blatant than that other video.

That’s like saying a “little pregnant”. It’s not a grey area, nor red.

Not true, you can do a two footed release without poles in the same amount of time and space. The pole plant is for balance only, it's not blocking.

Those two statements are not connected. If you believe it’s not “blocking” there’s really nothing to discuss. Believing is seeing. It’s the very definition of a blocking pole plant. But, believe away.

 

[geepers]

A two footed release is not a turn. The skier is going straight down the hill. It could be the beginning of a turn or just the start of travelling straight down the hill. Just like a sideslip, where you then point the skis downhill. It’s the beginning of a turn - perhaps, if you continue and then engage new edges. Otherwise you go straight down.

By this reasoning a pivot slip would be a continual series of turns. Yet it’s not a turn.

So the definition of a turn excludes a change in direction of around 90 degrees onto a new tangent? Must remember that when I pivot my car around a street corner.

Those two statements are not connected. If you believe it’s not “blocking” there’s really nothing to discuss. Believing is seeing. It’s the very definition of a blocking pole plant. But, believe away.

I'm with @Rod9301 on this one. The pole plant in this case causes the skier to reach down the hill in order for the body to move downhill and flatten the skis. Probably better watched on the orig vid.


Can get a skier to do the same sort of turn by standing downhill facing them, taking hold of their jacket just above their stomach [ASK FIRST!!] and giving them a slight pull forward and downhill. Let go as soon as they move. The skis will flatten and they'll swing around below you. No blocking pole plant required.

 

[geepers]

is to do a little pivot before you start the turn.

In deep, manky, leg-breaker snow?

Something doesn't fit here...

 

[mdf]

In deep, manky, leg-breaker snow?

Something doesn't fit here...

Surprising but it works. You have to be truly neutral (side to side and fore to aft). Just a little speed for unweighting at transition and you are light enough to pivot. It doesn't even take excessive speed or exaggerated retraction, just normal amounts.

 

[Steve]

Maybe we need than to define “turn.”

A two footed release is not a turn. The skier is going straight down the hill. It could be the beginning of a turn or just the start of travelling straight down the hill. Just like a sideslip, where you then point the skis downhill. It’s the beginning of a turn - perhaps, if you continue and then engage new edges. Otherwise you go straight down.

By this reasoning a pivot slip would be a continual series of turns. Yet it’s not a turn.

So the definition of a turn excludes a change in direction of around 90 degrees onto a new tangent? Must remember that when I pivot my car around a street corner.

As I said - it wasn't a joke.