Teaching Turn Initiation to Upper Int. & Advanced Skiers

Discussion in 'Ski School' started by Suzski, May 17, 2019.

  1. James

    James Skiing the powder Instructor

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    So who were the pace setters?

    The East was going to have a gold Nastar requirement bit dropped it because not enough places had Nastar.
     
  2. Mike King

    Mike King AKA Habacomike Instructor

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    I don't know who they were. There are plenty of sub-50 FIS point folk in Aspen though.
     
  3. François Pugh

    François Pugh Making fresh tracks Skier

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    This is all very interesting, but a little off topic. I don't really care who would place where in the various competitions, but I find it interesting that unless I've missed a post, the only PSIA reference for teaching turn initiation is the beginner turn with an old-inside-leg extension, rotate flat skis to an initial steering angle, then tip skis to start the new turn. The famous folks carving turn videos demonstrate flex old outside leg and tip skis while loading new outside ski to initiate a carving turn, which is different than the beginner turn initiation lesson. I can see how with the new (mid-70's?) approach to gliding wedge emphasizing rotation instead of the old (1930s ?) snow plow edge provides turn force beginner lessons, that would happen.

    I can also see that teaching beginners a turn that automatically includes speed control would be preferable to teaching them to carve turns that maximize exit speed. However the topic of this thread is teaching turn initiation to intermediate and advanced skiers. I would think they are ready for pure arc-2-arc carved turns. That is where/why @SKskier 's posts are relevant. Discounting turns that must be modified in order to make the FIS course set with the FIS dictated minimum radius skis (e.g. stivots), the ideal turn, or at least the most fun turn for me, is the pure-arc-2-arc carved turn. That's what should be taught to the intermediate and above skier, and that's what is closer to the turn made when possible on injected race courses (or similarly icy pistes - there have been a lot of them that I've skied, e.g. Tremblant Quebec, and Blue Mountain Collingwood Ontario after a week of freezing rain).
     
  4. LiquidFeet

    LiquidFeet Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    In the most recent Alpine Manual, PSIA puts teaching carved turns, arc-to-arc ones, in the advanced skier category, not the intermediate category. This may be a case of semantics.... meaning it all depends on what an intermediate skier is defined to be.
     
  5. Corgski

    Corgski Getting on the lift Skier

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    The way this thread is going, we are about a week away from discussing whether Spiderman would beat the Hulk at Super G. When we do, I'd suggest FIS rules must apply to the theoretical race otherwise the debate would just get stupid...

    Anyway these organizations are making the racing evaluation unnecessarily complicated. What do they think FIS races are for? I know normal (non Masters) FIS racers are usually relatively young but there is no rule about it. This guy, last year aged 62 got himself ranked just under 6000th in the world in slalom:
    https://www.fis-ski.com/DB/general/...torcode=AL&competitorid=229987&type=fispoints

    This guy at 47 is ranked a little over 1000 in Super G. He has been steadily improving his ranking for 20 years now:
    https://www.fis-ski.com/DB/general/...ctorcode=AL&competitorid=26318&type=fispoints

    And this guy is in his fifties and and ranks just over 2000th in downhill:
    https://www.fis-ski.com/DB/general/...t=&place=&disciplinecode=&position=&limit=100
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2019


  6. geepers

    geepers Out on the slopes Skier

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    Whilst that's correct, I think @Suzski should retain her ding,ding,ding.

    I believe @Mike King meant this where the turn radius is too tight for even a bent ski to follow. (Should be cued to start at 6 min 52 secs)



    The vid topic may be moguls but this part applies to steered shorts used in many places - like steep groomers.

    BTW there's a lot relevant to the OP in another Bob Barnes vid:



    That distinction between defensive and offensive turns resonates for me.
     
  7. geepers

    geepers Out on the slopes Skier

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    Yes!

    Small point but those guys are Australians, not New Zealanders.

    [​IMG]

    Not injected ice however a couple of older vids of McGlashan on a harder surface and another in gates. Looks like soft snow in the gates. Would you say he's adaptable?



     
  8. Corgski

    Corgski Getting on the lift Skier

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    Thinking about the OP's question, my impression is that there seems to be two fundamentally different ways of thinking about skiing progression. The one is to think it is like baseball or tennis where an early intermediate is essentially doing the same thing as a professional, regardless of whether they are doing it well or not. One could argue that basic angulation may take a little time to work through but is not particularly difficult in of itself. 10 degrees angulation may not be World Cup level but is still angulation after all. Using this approach, carving arc to arc is simply advanced implementation of skills that can actually be taught early on, as opposed to a new skill set.

    Alternatively one can think of skiing being more like ballet or gymnastics where intermediates generally are not capable of doing the same movements at all, not even at a lower standard. After all a 90 degree somersault is not a somersault. Ballet dancers typically have danced a few years before going on pointe. Anyway, these two ways of thinking tend to lead to very different progressions.
     
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  9. James

    James Skiing the powder Instructor

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    Why do they do so much stuff in NZ? They always seem to be there.
    You should kick them out. :ogcool:
     
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  10. geepers

    geepers Out on the slopes Skier

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    Rookie Academy runs out of NZ. Founders are Kiwis I believe (or at least reside there) and started it at Treble Cone.

    Lorenz and McGlashan used to instruct in Australia at places like Thredbo. Lorenz still runs workshops there - has at least one planned for August this year.

    I'm an Aussie so not up to me who lives in NZ. The New Zealanders typically have good taste and an eye for talent. I'm married to one:hug:. (So she may be the exception...:cool:)
     
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  11. jimtransition

    jimtransition Getting on the lift Skier

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    Haha why did this thread on turn initiation turn into a debate over whether Reilly and Pauly ski race? No they are not racers, but they are amazing skiers. Does it matter at all if they would get beaten by a WC skier in a race? How many WC skiers have made videos explaining how to ski? Reilly is also one of the biggest racing fans I know and understands it incredibly well.
     
  12. jimtransition

    jimtransition Getting on the lift Skier

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    FIS races are competitions, the ISIA tests and Eurotest are only designed to test a standard. You don't have to do the Eurotest if you already have a certain amount of FIS points. Pretty sure to get FIS points you need to complete a number of races, what's the point of that if you just want to see if an instructor skis to a certain level.

    Someone mentioned these tests not being done on proper slopes, all Eurotests must be run in fis homolgated slopes, and when I did mine, it was injected as there was a fis race there the day before. Other times it may not be, just luck of the draw.
     
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  13. Corgski

    Corgski Getting on the lift Skier

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    Agreed, unfair to have someone optimize according to one criterion and then judge them on a different one (my previous comment was trying to say that in a less than serious way). In any multi faceted sport you rarely have someone excel in all aspects. Nevertheless, if you really want a world ranking I think doing one open or entry level FIS race will give you that.

    Would be nice though to have a discussion on intermediate to advanced progressions that does not end up getting distracted (this may be the wrong time of year to try to have one). Stalling at intermediate level has been a widespread and resilient problem in skiing, I have a hard time believing it is that intractable.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
  14. François Pugh

    François Pugh Making fresh tracks Skier

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    Is there any official PSIA direction on teaching turn initiation for advanced students wanting to perfect their arc-2-arc turns?
     
  15. SKskier

    SKskier At the base lodge Skier

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    This topic is about „how to start a turn“ for IM and advanced. My intent was to react in case of „Carving“(„how to start a turn“), because here in Europe carving is „holy grail“ for advanced hobby skiers. And RmG and others are very often considered as benchmark of carving for such wannabe carvers here.

    (I reacted to)First claim here was that all L4 instructors must be very good in comparison with racers because they must ski FIS GS course after some „WC Top50 racers“. I doubted it, so I asked about details. Then it was shown, that those tests are done in limit 12% slower than "50 FIS points skiers"(it means average local race guy as my friends), so I said it is total different than „top 50 WC“ – it´s absolutely different level.

    Because 50 points skier is 800th place in the world and "+12% slower skiers" on average snow(OK, setting gates as „original GS“ but usually not on ice) are far away from WC abilities and technique. Simply it is a few levels difference. Of course I think those demo skiers are much better than „average L4 instructor“, but there are visible differences in technique between them and real racers.

    I think that´s mainly due to differences of technique – see my arguments in post 177(different timing, too much angulation only for effect etc.).
    One of those differences I wrote is „tied“ with this topic(iniciation of turn), so I continued discussion to find other opinions about this(my arguments in p.177) – not to make some challenge „who is the boss or Hulk against Superman“(I repeatedly wrote that both „Aussies“ – sorry for geographical NZ mistake – are very good skiers generally).

    My impression is that such „demo style“ of carving is often confusing for those thousands of „carvers“, who think that this „ass to grass“ is one of main principles! And I can not agree, as I said previously, have a look at that free skiing of WC stars, they angulate much less(again, see p.177), have different timing etc.
    The result is usually copy+paste of that demo style and „carvers“ are enhancing hips to snow and then those guys can not carve on tougher terrain, nor to significantly cleanly tighten a radius(this is main result with "Race" technique).

    James wrote about that „cosinus“ calculation – I would like to add, that for „tight“ carved turn(clean) skier need not only have more edge angle, but he needs to have it BEFORE fall line and sooner that is generally accepted – also adequately loaded, not only edged!

    In one post I wrote something about rotary teaching. I consider it necessary to learn and repeat for all levels of skiers also for top racers! Because a lot of „carvers“ with problems with „tighter clean carving“ has deficits in rotary technique – they can not show solid skidded/pivot turn(e.g. full control of speed, radius and direction on icy steep slope mixed with some powder or some stork turn in that conditions).

    I think without very high level of this rotary on steep ice, a skier is not ready("sensitive" edges and CoM work) for solid „race style“ carving. Of course, then how to continue for such high level carving on steeps and ice is for different topic...
     
  16. Mike King

    Mike King AKA Habacomike Instructor

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    @SKskier, no one in this thread ever claimed that these folk were in the top 50 -- @James posted that no WC skier would place in the top 50 in a Japanese technical event. You then said that these demo skiers would not be able to ski a WC injected GS course, so I pointed out that they had to ski within 12.5% of the time of two 50 point FIS skiers. That doesn't mean that they are competitive on the WC, but it does mean that they have sufficient technique to be able to ski a GS course with some respectability. Clearly that would not be competitive on the WC; otherwise they would actually be on the WC. And as @jimintransition said, the GS actually has to take place on a FIS GS course and his test was on a run that had been injected.

    As to rotary and the appropriateness of demo team technique to carving, check out this video. What do you see specifically in the skiing of these three skiers that you believe is limiting and what do you see that you feel is leading to ski performance?

     
  17. Mike King

    Mike King AKA Habacomike Instructor

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    I guess the rest of the issue, @SKskier, is that I don't think there is anything that is "demo style" carving. There is a great deal of variety in the carving of various demo teams and even within the demo teams. Not all of the Australians ski like Paul and Reilly. And the Italians ski differently than the Austrians or Swiss, let alone the Koreans or the Japanese. Some team members have technique that looks more like what you'd see on the WC as they come from a WC race background, while others are more recreationally based. There are many ways to get ski performance, and the terrain, snow conditions, and intent of the skier all figure into what's the right mix of tricks. Not everyone is looking to find the fastest way through a set of gates.

    Even more to the point, there's variation in technique on the WC itself. Ligety skis differently than Hirscher, and Brignone skis differently than Schriffrin. Just consider this video analysis of Brignone's run at Killington this year and how her technique differs from pretty much everyone else on the WC.



    Mike
     
  18. SKskier

    SKskier At the base lodge Skier

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    Mike, in post 169 you wrote: "He is an ISA Level 4 ski instructor, which means he had to achieve the ISA standard in GS -- within 18% of a WC skier"

    And only later you add correction "50 FIS points skier + 12%" from some NZ manual...so at that time I needed to clarify, because those are two different statements
    ( WC skier vs 50 FIS points) and different level of technique.

    OK, let it be this comparison of abilites, about FIS points and some demo persons. Only if you can answer my annotations in post 177 about the topic where exactly I see differences in technique - generally I would like to know how you see it(or other people here).

    Your comment about rotary and etc. - It was(from me) not tied to previous discussion about Reilly etc. It(rotary) was different topic about "teaching of carving" generally,
    where I said that (generally) hobby advanced carvers do not have enough skills(nothing with Reilly at all) - sorry if I made some confusion(to give two different topic in one post). Hope it´s clearer now...
     
  19. SKskier

    SKskier At the base lodge Skier

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    I know that there are differences between racers, but I say that there´s significant(not very visible for most people) difference in timing etc. between instructors/demo skiers and racers. And e.g. that hips to snow in demo videos is confusing advanced hobby carvers.

    Of course, there are many techniques for different terrains - I do not doubt, I only wrote reaction about "carving".
     
  20. LiquidFeet

    LiquidFeet Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    Below is what the current PSIA Alpine Technical Manual says. I think this is on page 124. You'll see it's mostly a description of a carved turn, not a teaching progression.

    --------------------------------------
    Carved Parallel Turns

    --Refine skills and skill blends performed in the basic parallel turn.
    --Maximize using the design of the ski (flex, sidecut, and torsion) by engaging and weighting the skis' edges.
    --To engage the skis at turn initiation, direct pressure toward the tips as the body moves toward the turn's apex.
    --Tip the skis on edge while directing weight to the outside ski, bending the ski into an arc.
    --A deliberate weight transfer to the outside ski early in the initiation phase begins establishing the turn's arc.
    --Active inside ski actions correspond with actions of the outside ski.
    --The edge angle of the outside ski continues to dictate the arc of the turn through the shaping phase.
    --Angulation allows the skier to adjust edge angle and maintain balance toward the outside ski.
    --Pole swing begins during the finish of the turn and the touch occurs with or slightly after the edge change. The skier should direct the pole's tip toward the apex of the upcoming turn.

    Focus: In a carved parallel turn, body weight (pressure) bends a ski into an arc. When the ski is tipped on edge, the arc is pressed into the snow, scribing a curved path, and the tail of the ski follows in the path cut by the tip. The ski travels forward through the arc of the turn and does not skid sideways. The function of the edge angle is to access the turning force (centripetal) and minimize the braking force (friction).

    --------------------------------------

    In this Manual, PSIA does not promote any particular progression in teaching carved turns that I know of. I have missed things before. Teaching railroad tracks on gentle terrain to intermediates does precede teaching actual carved turns to advanced skiers in the current Manual, however... I'm looking at that right now. But again, no progression is written out for teaching railroad tracks.

    PSIA publishes a small spiral-bound Adult Alpine Teaching Handbook that has multiple progressions and drills in it that an instructor can use to lead a student to carved turns, but I can't find my copy right now. I remember that Handbook being very helpful when I studied it one summer prior to taking the LII Teaching Exam. This little book was originally put together by Vail's ski school, then PSIA modified and re-published it some years later (2015). There's also one of these for teaching children. Both are organized by skier level. Here's a link: https://www.psia-rm.org/product/adult-alpine-teaching-handbook/
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2019
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