TDK's newest video on carving

[jzmtl]

Up transition is a lot less tiring at lower speeds. Flexing is almost effortless at higher speed but takes more muscle power when slower and not something you want to do all day long.

 

[Chris Walker]

After 48 years of skiing, I’m finally getting to level 1.

 

[Noodler]

Up transition is a lot less tiring at lower speeds. Flexing is almost effortless at higher speed but takes more muscle power when slower and not something you want to do all day long.

Absolutely false when you learn to flex correctly.

 

[Skitechniek]

@LiquidFeet
How fast you have to go also sepends on the radius of the turn/ski. Hard to say how slow is too slow.

But when I see lower level skiers trying it usually turns into a retraction turn instead of flexion. Which are two different thing. Retraction turns are nice drills, but it shouldn't be a way of skiing imho.

Edit:
To give you an example, these skiers are not flexing. These are retraction turns and it makes zero sense to do this imho. Not a lot of performance coming from the ski and you see they have to compensate a lot to get that flexed look. Hunching forward with the upper body, pushing the ass back. Legs in the back seat as a result. They compensate to achieve the flexed look, because they are not weightless during transition.
This teaches poor mechanics imho and it creates extra spinal load for sure.

EDIT:
To give some more explanation and definition:
With proper flexing, the legs move up towards you (flexion) instead of you moving down towards your legs (retraction). That last thing is what will happen if you teach lower level skiers to flex imho.
Here the legs come up towards the torso. No hunching over from the upper body. Completely weightless, ski's even leave the ground. This is flexing.

 

[Chris V.]

Both of these skiers are displaying extension at the transition. Yes, they get deeply flexed at a certain point, but it's not timed to the transition.

 

[Skitechniek]

@Chris V.

Call it whatever you want, fact is they look like this:

This is not flexion! It is retraction.
And in this case it is compensation, to create a flexed look. Don't try to flex if you don't have enough pressure on the ski to make yourself float during transition.
It is not a timing issue, nor because they haven't mastered flexing or whatever excuse you want to use next. It's about pressure, if you can't generate the pressure in the turn to get weightless out of the turn, you're not supposed to flex.

But no matter why you think someone looks like this (timing, not the proper transition, whatever), this is what beginner/intermediate flexing is going to be looking like probably 100/100 times when they're attempting it, so why promote this? So much unnecessary extra stress is put on the spine and joints now. And they're not going to get it right, unless they learn how to get more pressure on the ski.

Don't try to emulate someone else's biomechanics when the physics is not the same. Different levels of pressure ask for different biomechanics.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@LiquidFeet
How fast you have to go also sepends on the radius of the turn/ski. Hard to say how slow is too slow.

But when I see lower level skiers trying it usually turns into a retraction turn instead of flexion. Which are two different thing.....

You have seen lower level skiers doing retraction turns? We must have different definitions of retraction turns.
-----------------------
Oh, as I read farther in your posts above, I see we do have very different definitions of retraction turns. And I know others have different definitions.

"Retraction Turn" is a good thread topic all on its own. I'll start one.

Retraction Turns - how do you use this phrase?

Title says it all.

www.pugski.com

 

[Skitechniek]

@LiquidFeet
What is your definition of a retraction turn?
2:06 --> this is mine
They move their hips and upper body down. If you properly flex the hips should not move and stay level as the legs cross under.

The skiers I showed earlier hence don't show flexing, but retraction imho. They actively use the upper body and hips to stay low. They are not letting the legs do the work.

EDIT:
Ah nice topic. Maybe make it into flexion vs retracting?

 

[LiquidFeet]

^^Fun to watch.
Is one of those skiers Andreas Spettel? If yes, who's the other?

 

[Skitechniek]

@LiquidFeet
Yes, Spettel and Benni Walch

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Skitechniek, in my conceptual model, there are three ways for the CoM to change places with the BoS (base of support) during transition: cross-over, cross-through, and cross-under.

In cross-over, the skier gets taller by extending the new outside leg, and the CoM consequently crosses over the skis. This is an extension turn in my conceptual model.

In cross-through, the skier stays at the same level, flexing the new outside leg to allow the CoM to topple across the skis. This is a flexion turn in my conceptual model.

In cross-under, the skier quickly flexes both legs to bring feet upward, then moves them from one side of the body to the other. The skier does not sink lower; rather, the feet are pulled up and are moved to the other side, under the body. The speed of this release can prompt maximum rebound from the skis. This is a retraction turn in my conceptual model.

 

[razie]

Because at slow speeds you are not light/weightless/floating during the transition and will end up in the backseat if you flex. Which is why you should not learn a beginner how to flex imho.

You need a certain level of performance in your turn in order to perform flexing corrrectly. That level of performance is not there if you are going slow.

Yeah - for beginners, I normally reduce flexing to just "smooth transfer" or "smooth release" i.e. the opposite of push and jerk off of the ski... "bend Ze knee" type of stuff... there is good value in teaching it.

Deep flexing is just a red herring and totally driven by performance, IMHO. Either steep runs or rhythm or offset or performance etc. Flexing is often misunderstood, I think - some either don't do enough for the performance of what they're trying to do and some do too much of, and end up squatty in the back seat... to quote some truth "it takes years of training and awareness of the feedback from the ski for a skier to nail it every time—especially on the course ( Hirscher, Ryding)".

In terms of teaching and learning it, yes, retraction is very important. And they all suck and look weird in the beginning, the more performance they aim for, the worse it is.

It's a matter of how great skiers are created - we touched on that. Some coaches prefer to not go near flexing because it's hard to coach properly, it messes with a lot of things - so many go back to just "hop and push forward" and then let some flexion appear in time, on course or steeps or some other ways - but that always leads to less mastery and variation, because racers learn to do it in response to cues, not feel. Some teach flexion in the wrong place (to finish the turn as opposed to release the turn, subtle but massive difference).

The other way is to teach flexing specifically, this is one I subscribe to and done it to both recreational skiers and racers including FIS, with very good results. But it takes a while and it takes conviction that you can push through that place where you can't ski anymore... and a willingness to ski like crap for a while - but it does provide a jump start to many and even for lower level racers, there is great value I found. In fact, I find it much better to leave fore/aft for after flexing is mastered (within reason, of course) - that's a major point for skull bashing in coaching discussions, heh.