Super G skis.

[CalG]

Though this title may imply or suggest a "competition" topic, it isn't.

But watching the womens S G on the tube tonight I was impressed by the length and the "straightness" of the skis under those athletes.

the old days...are still new and fresh.;-)

Some things just work.
Ask G.Plake for particulars on how to branch out. ;-)

 

[dbostedo]

So I'm somewhat ignorant about various race skis.... but aren't the Super G skis limited by the regulations of the race? I.e. would the skiers be choosing different skis if they were allowed to use whatever they wanted?

 

[Philpug]

So I'm somewhat ignorant about various race skis.... but aren't the Super G skis limited by the regulations of the race? I.e. would the skiers be choosing different skis if they were allowed to use whatever they wanted?

There are sidecut, waist widths and boot heights minumums and maximums allowed by FIS regulations. This is why you see skis that are "FIS Legal". For some light reading: FIS Ski Regulations.

 

[dbostedo]

Cool... I've heard some of those numbers thrown around, but haven't seen the whole list before. Thanks. Lots and lots of rules... there are even underwear specs for ski jumpers.

So, is my contention correct, that the numbers are put in place in part to make things more difficult? And that the skiers would choose different skis if they could? (I.e. a radius smaller than 40m or 45m for a Super-G event.)

 

[KevinF]

The “official “ reason ski design is specified by FIS is for the safety of the athletes. The real reason is probably more convoluted. Paging @Rudi Riet and @ScotsSkier ... has FIS ski design been fairly stable with the exception of GS skis?

 

[François Pugh]

Though this title may imply or suggest a "competition" topic, it isn't.

But watching the womens S G on the tube tonight I was impressed by the length and the "straightness" of the skis under those athletes.

the old days...are still new and fresh.;-)

Some things just work.
Ask G.Plake for particulars on how to branch out. ;-)

Horses for courses. If you want to carve arc-2-arc turns at high speeds, you want a long turn radius to go along with that speed, because you will want to arc a long radius turn. You have to tip the ski to the critical angle to get the forces to hold a carve at the required force to go around a corner at that speed and at that radius. If design turn radius of your ski is too small, it tries to dial up a smaller turn, and your clean carve ends up not being so clean.

It's never as simple and clear cut as all that; just look at slow motion of a SG or DH skier making a good turn, but the basic point holds. Longer turn radius skis for longer clean carved turns is money.

As to the rules, there is a safety aspect, and there is a little bit of make more difficult to separate the field too.

 

[Muleski]

FIS governs the whole ball of wax with respect to the sport. So, One of their committees determines the rules for exactly what a FIS sanctioned SG race course, homologated hill, and course "set" will look like. They also determine the safety requirements, such as the netting. The rules determine how long a course should be, how much vertical drop, how many changes in direction {turns}, etc. There is some leeway for course setters, which is based on the level of completion. A "FIS entry" SG, for younger athletes, for example is going to be nothing like a NorAM, let alone a Europa Cup or World Cup.

At the same time, FIS regulations determine what the skis need to be for this skiing. Dimensions like the width of the waist, the minimum radius, minimum length.

The whole "thing" hangs together. To safely race, and to be competitive in these races and course sets, you need the right skis. You might think that "hey, I'd rather have a shorter ski with a smaller radius", and the problem is that it will "hook up" and want to make turns that are much tighter than the course set dictates. And "hooking up" at 50-60mph or faster is not good. It's a great way to get badly injured. Skis with more "shape" to them, and more sidecut, as many of us know from experience do not like to run straight too much. At all. They get sketchy, and are much more comfortable on edge. It's best illustrated by a SL ski, but a 30-35M GS ski is no bargain in a true FIS set.

You're not running straight for long distances in a SG, or very, very rarely. So the skis are not exactly like DH skis, nor like GS skis. I'd say they are more like DH skis, though. And in some SG sets, there can be some pretty open and straight sections, running in a tuck, etc. The skis matter a great deal in SG once you're racing at a fairly high level. For example at the top levels of U16's, they are critical. They need to run fast, absorb terrain and be responsive to the long SG turns.

I am perplexed when folks talk about how they love to free ski on SG skis. I have a big aversion to that. unless it's under the perfect conditions. wide, empty hill, perfect surface, and skilled pilots. Have seen some bad, sad outcomes.

 

[François Pugh]

I am perplexed when folks talk about how they love to free ski on SG skis. I have a big aversion to that. unless it's under the perfect conditions. wide, empty hill, perfect surface, and skilled pilots. Have seen some bad, sad outcomes.

I understand your concern. Skiing at DH or SG speeds on unprepared courses is extremely dangerous. Still if folk want to experience the thrill of speed on a race SG ski (or even an old recreational SG ski), and are willing to take the risk, so long as there is no one in their spill zone, I'm fine with it. I'll pick up the pieces. He who calls the tune pays the piper. Besides there are worse things they could do like ski at high speeds on ordinary cheater GS skis. Let's not even talk about modern 1-L sport bikes on back roads.

 

[ScotsSkier]

The current spec for womens Fis SG skis is >40m and minimum 205 length, for men it is >45, 210 minimum. Previously it was > 33m radius for both. The specs changed at the same time as the GS ski radiNow as I have said so often before, don't automatically assume that the bigger radius is always bad! There are a lot of other factors that apply. I have been using the current women's SG ski for the last couple of seasons and really like them. Actually quicker and easier to turn than the previous generation where I was on a 201/33. I also have a 210/45 men's SG which I thought would be significantly more difficult to ski. It is not....

And yes, a real SG ski is something special....IF you know how to ski it properly!!!! No heel pushers or smelters....And it can be skied outside the course. - but subject to having a clear hill and remembering that obstacles and other skiers come up on you a lot quicker than you realize! Early morning midweek sometimes....

 

[Muleski]

Yep. This ^^^^!

 

[Muleski]

My aversion. I know two skilled racers who have died in accidents while skiing on SG skis, and not being on a closed, prepped hill.

Glenn Plake and his hype of mogul skiing back on his K2 810 DH's probably never has helped!

But yes, today's SG's are better skis that ever before, as @ScotSkier wrote. Purpose built, for sure.

 

[Johnny V.]

I am perplexed when folks talk about how they love to free ski on SG skis. I have a big aversion to that. unless it's under the perfect conditions. wide, empty hill, perfect surface, and skilled pilots. Have seen some bad, sad outcomes.

And yes, a real SG ski is something special....IF you know how to ski it properly!!!! No heel pushers or smelters....And it can be skied outside the course. - but subject to having a clear hill and remembering that obstacles and other skiers come up on you a lot quicker than you realize! Early morning midweek sometimes....

Yes, they can be a blast to freeski, but as @Muleski and @ScotsSkier say conditions have to be perfect. I want well groomed slopes, lack of other skiers and good light and you have to know when to put them back in the rack.

 

[François Pugh]

The secret to skiing fast is knowing when not to.

 

[Brian Finch]

I’ve got an old NOS JR SG in a 191 if anyone wants to buy a cheap ski.

 

[ScotsSkier]

My aversion. I know two skilled racers who have died in accidents while skiing on SG skis, and not being on a closed, prepped hill.

Glenn Plake and his hype of mogul skiing back on his K2 810 DH's probably never has helped!

But yes, today's SG's are better skis that ever before, as @ScotSkier wrote. Purpose built, for sure.

Yes, totally understand MS and I share your concerns on that. One of the big issues is that, even in a big program, getting hill space and opportunity to practice SG and get used to speeds is pretty limited. The only time we really get real SG training is when we can do an early load. Otherwise we are limited to a (very) open GS sets with not too many gates. And this typically doesn't allow for grabbing a tuck much. Thus to get the feel for speed it does sometimes need to catch opportunities on a non-closed hill. This certainly increases risks! Probably the biggest issue is that objects and people come at you much more quickly than you realize so you really have to have all your senses working and give 4 times the clearance/distance/time that you would normally on a GS ski. So when I do go out one an SG ski it is normally first thing and pit them away by 09.30. The plus side of getting used to an SG ski is that it can also significantly help your GS skills by becoming more comfortable with carrying (and looking) for speed in the course

 

[ScotsSkier]

One of my biggest ah ha moments/breakthroughs in SG was when I raced the international FIS Masters at Park City in 2014. W had a couple of days of training runs...at 06.00 in the morning...in February ......can you say cold spelt with an F....??!! now Payday at park City is a nice speed hill. Demanding enough to be challenging but not too intimidating and with a mix of flats, pitches and moderate terrain. Well running multiple training laps in early morning when it was a rock hard surface (and trying to avoid frostbite in my toes!) wa, shall we say, s character building and really helped me to understand "trusting the ski' and grabbing a tuck as often and for as long as possible. My results in the 2 race runs were not that spectacular, 5th in both in my age class (but that included the 2 Skinner brothers and Pierre JG the mammoth coach in front of me so i didn't feel too bad) . But it did teach me that for Masters SG, the more you could grab and hold that tuck the quicker you could be. I raced a FW masters SG at mammoth a couple of weeks later and won my class applying that. The other major learning point, from Big Sky nationals in 2016 ,was to get off my edges as early as possible after the turn apex (if not before!) I had what i thought was quite a decent run but the time was not what I expected. One of my fellow FW coaches called me over after it and asked me if i realized where i had bene giving up time and explained it to me ....Tried to take it to heart!

So now SG is definitely one of my favorite disciplines, but it has taken a loooong time to get there....you really need to understand how the ski works and have the confidence to trust it...

 

[dbostedo]

What prompted the name change @'MuricanSkier ??

 

[Erik Timmerman]

We used to have a town Super G right around this time in January. It sure was fun. People have gotten wimpier.

 

[Swede]

SG skis are cool. Race tools even more different from recreational skis than a FIS SL or GS ski. However, even in a U14 SG on 185-190 cm skis w r33, you need to close down some 300-400 meters of vert (1000-1200 ft) for a normal course. Completely agree that in most places a SG ski is impossible recreationally. The speed it need to just function are too high — you really need to be 100% sure that no one is going to stand behind a crest or suddenly ”show up” from the trees.

 

[BGreen]

I’m a little late to the party here (as usual) with a couple questions:
1. What are heel pushers and smelters?
2. Where can you reasonably free ski a SG outside a closed and netted hill?