Sun Valley, Snowbasin going Epic

[LKLA]

They've published a closing date: https://www.alta.com/the-mountain/mountain-info. And I think over the past 5 years, at least, they've stuck to that closing date, right?

Agreed. Snowbird's positioned a bit better for late spring and summer.

I disagree here. Vail's primary responsibility is to maximize shareholder value, which it does largely through the Epic pass. They are ready and willing to operate on days that will be marginally unprofitable for the current season if they believe it increases long-term value. Keeping Breck open later contributes to that long-term strategy in a couple ways--1) it sends a message to A-Basin, with whom its likely Vail is still negotiating, that Vail is ready and willing to compete for spring skiers if A-Basin doesn't renew. 2) In the event that A-Basin doesn't renew, it gives Front Range skiers who value spring skiing reassurance that they'll still be able to get it if they renew their Epic passes.

The overall operational challenges are similar, of course. A public company has a duty to maximize value. A nonprofit has certain tax advantages. A private owner can do as the owner wishes (as long as they can afford it).
To bring it back to the title of the thread--the Holdings, as private owners, could've kept losing money at Snowbasin as long as they wanted to (and with the Sinclair Oil money, they could've afforded it for a long time). Instead, they've decided to lower pass prices drastically and partner with other groups (first Powder Alliance, then MCP, now Epic) in order to introduce more people to the mountain and turn a profit. But they're in no way obligated to maximize value. Whereas Vail is.

Vail's primary responsibility is to its shareholders, thus it will do what it thinks will generate the most shareholder value, (hopefully sustainable and the long term value). Selling passes early in the season has nothing to do with when they open or close resorts. Zero. It does however have everything to do with de-leveraging the very seasonal revenue that a ski company has, getting liquidity ahead of major CAPEX spend that ski companies often lack, creating a sense of "I got a good deal" with customers that customers are often very receptive to....part of Vail's overall marketing / go-to market strategy that they implement so well. They employee 27,000 part-time hard-working people, or about 80-85% of their workforce. Due to housing, work permits, visas, contracts, pay-roll issues and a host of other challenges (how much water you can pull to make snow...), they can't just pivot push out the closing date of resorts (or do so profitably).

Private or public makes little difference. Public ski resorts also do things that are not profitable but help support the profit growth of a larger initiative. It is silly to say private owners can just spend as they wish with no regard to profit, as if money grew on trees or bills did not need to get paid. Btw, that sort of thinking is what got the industry in the pickle that it is in and that unfortunately in many cases is still working through. I assure you that the Holding family is not in the business of throwing money away, be it with their investment in Sun Valley or in Little America Hotels. Regarding taxes, you let me know if you can pay lower taxes than Vail! Very much doubt it. Most private companies I know (invest in) pay much higher taxes than the average public company I invest in (some public companies barely pay any taxes).

 

[HardDaysNight]

It may well be that Vail doesn’t make as much money later in the season as they do during the high days and holidays. On the other hand, having gorged themselves to bursting on the wallets of skiers from Thanksgiving to Spring Breaks in March, with $179 day pass prices, $1,000+/day lessons (of which the hapless instructor gets maybe $12/hour), hamburgers at $24.50 and pizza slices at $13.99, cocktails containing one ounce of booze for $13-16, plonk wine at $12/glass, day locker rentals at $15/day, Vail owned accommodation at $300-500/room/night, not to mention exorbitant charges for rental equipment, etc., would it really kill them not simply to shutter the place first week of April and to hell with anyone who’d like to take advantage of what is often the best conditions of the season? I mean I’m all in favour of shareholder value but doesn’t this seem like tearing the arse out of us? Does to me anyway.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

In a big snow year, there is wisdom in keeping at least one resort in each area open as late as possible while selling passes for the next season that include "the rest of this season." It wouldn't do much for all of us who already have season passes, but it might draw in quite a few new folks who are enjoying an extended season. It certainly worked for Mammoth Mountain for a lot of years. It might also keep some loyal Epic pass holders from switching to Ikon to ski Mammoth and Squaw well beyond spring and into summer.

 

[Wasatchman]

Alta doesnt have a set closing date and will stay open longer if they want.

Also the bird's steeper north facing run preserve powder longer and mineral and LC have great exposure for spring skiing.

Alta does set a closing date as @New2 points out. And I remember Alta's closing date has lagged Snowbird by as much as 2 months in really good snow years. Regardless of the Bird's relative positioning on the mountain, it wouldn't explain the discrepancy of Alta closing much earlier than the Bird in good snow years.

Regardless, I give up. I have a feeling I'm facing an uphill battle unless arguing that Alta is infallible and Vail is trash

 

[Wasatchman]

It may well be that Vail doesn’t make as much money later in the season as they do during the high days and holidays. On the other hand, having gorged themselves to bursting on the wallets of skiers from Thanksgiving to Spring Breaks in March, with $179 day pass prices, $1,000+/day lessons (of which the hapless instructor gets maybe $12/hour), hamburgers at $24.50 and pizza slices at $13.99, cocktails containing one ounce of booze for $13-16, plonk wine at $12/glass, day locker rentals at $15/day, Vail owned accommodation at $300-500/room/night, not to mention exorbitant charges for rental equipment, etc., would it really kill them not simply to shutter the place first week of April and to hell with anyone who’d like to take advantage of what is often the best conditions of the season? I mean I’m all in favour of shareholder value but doesn’t this seem like tearing the arse out of us? Does to me anyway.

Which is exactly why I hate what is happening to the ski industry becoming a duopoly with IKON and Vail. The short answer is yes, they will tear the arse out of all of us to the extent they can get away with it. Shareholders could give a shit if we are getting reamed, they just want maximum profits for their corporation.

 

[Seldomski]

This play at Snowbasin smells more like getting affluent Utah locals to travel to other Vail properties. Maybe there is an affluent group in Utah that doesn't care for PCMR "riff-raff," or the traffic jams getting to Alta/Bird and would rather travel to ski to get away from crowds. They would choose the big Epic pass to get a couple weekends locally at Snowbasin +access to Sun Valley, Vail, BC, Whistler, etc. Limiting to 2 days for the smaller pass will keep the cheapest pass holders from arranging an entire trip around Snowbasin. For the destination skier, adding Snowbasin gets some marketing out there that the place exists... May add some variety to destination skiers coming to SLC to ski. Personally I would never get an Epic pass solely for skiing PCMR, but I'm one of those that must travel to ski. PCMR is one of the last places I'd go on that pass.

 

[4ster]

In a big snow year, there is wisdom in keeping at least one resort in each area open as late as possible while selling passes for the next season that include "the rest of this season." It wouldn't do much for all of us who already have season passes, but it might draw in quite a few new folks who are enjoying an extended season. It certainly worked for Mammoth Mountain for a lot of years. It might also keep some loyal Epic pass holders from switching to Ikon to ski Mammoth and Squaw well beyond spring and into summer.

I had an epic Pass three years ago. Although Kirkwood would be much more convenient for me, I bought a Squalpine pass last year and an ikon pass this year specifically for the late season skiing.

 

[HardDaysNight]

This play at Snowbasin smells more like getting affluent Utah locals to travel to other Vail properties. Maybe there is an affluent group in Utah that doesn't care for PCMR "riff-raff," or the traffic jams getting to Alta/Bird and would rather travel to ski to get away from crowds. They would choose the big Epic pass to get a couple weekends locally at Snowbasin +access to Sun Valley, Vail, BC, Whistler, etc. Limiting to 2 days for the smaller pass will keep the cheapest pass holders from arranging an entire trip around Snowbasin. For the destination skier, adding Snowbasin gets some marketing out there that the place exists... May add some variety to destination skiers coming to SLC to ski. Personally I would never get an Epic pass solely for skiing PCMR, but I'm one of those that must travel to ski. PCMR is one of the last places I'd go on that pass.

Doesn’t seem very likely that affluent Utah locals would be yearning for Vail, Beaver Creek and a few days at Snowbasin (which they’ve doubtless skied frequently anyway). More probably this is a move to persuade tourons to buy an Epic pass rather than the far better value (for visitors) Ikon.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

I had an epic Pass three years ago. Although Kirkwood would be much more convenient for me, I bought a Squalpine pass last year and an ikon pass this year specifically for the late season skiing.

See you in spring!

 

[Big J]

theyre being added to the pass for next season, not being purchased.

From Vail's Press Release:

06 February 2019

• Sun Valley Resort and Snowbasin Resort join the Epic Pass, Epic Local, Epic 7-Day and Epic 4-Day passes beginning with the 2019-20 winter season in a multi-year alliance.
• Epic Pass holders will receive seven days of skiing or snowboarding with no restrictions at both Sun Valley and Snowbasin.
• Epic Local Pass holders receive two days at each resort with minimal restrictions.
• Epic 7-Day pass holders can use any or all of their seven days and Epic 4-Day pass holders can use any or all of their four days with no restrictions at both resorts.
• Epic, Epic Local, Epic 7-Day and Epic 4-Day pass holders will receive 50 percent off one-day window lift ticket prices after their respective days have been redeemed.
• The industry-leading Epic Pass features access to world-class mountain resorts throughout eight countries for the 2019-20 season, more than any other season pass in the world.

Mod Edit.

Does not include my Epic Military Pass as SV is not owned by Vail. Bummer!

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Does not include my Epic Military Pass as SV is not owned by Vail. Bummer!

Sliding’s probably better where it will work.

 

[Kyle]

So it looks like there is going to be a new pass for 3 days access to each of Sun Valley and Snowbasin next year:
https://www.snowbasin.com/tickets-passes/season-passes/season-passes/

Sun & Snow Pass
A new pass for those who want to take full advantage of two renowned ski areas, Sun Valley and Snowbasin with no blackout dates. Purchase early for best pricing and the most benefits.

• Three days at each resort - no blackout dates
• 50% off window ticket rate afterwards
• 50% off window ticket rate in the Early Value season before using pass days
• 50% off the summer 2019 lift rides

Early Purchase Added Benefits

• Child pass for $19.00 with purchase of an Adult pass
• Two "Family and Friends" 40% off lift tickets for the 2019-20 season - no blackout dates.

Available for purchase March 1st!



As for the Snowbasin Premier Pass, it looks like the benefits are similar to last year with the substitution of Epic resorts for Mountain Collective. While it says "all Epic Pass destinations" I am guessing it may actually be limited to those owned by Vail. From the Snowbasin website again:

Premier Pass Perks

• No blackout dates
• 2019 Summer gondola access
• Five days of skiing/snowboarding at Sun Valley Resort, Idaho (2019-20 winter season, non-transferable)
• 50% off unlimited day tickets at all Epic Pass destinations (2019-20 winter season, no blackout dates)
• 50% off one private snowsports lesson (2019-20 winter season, blackout dates apply)
• 15% discount off Winter Repair in Grizzly Center Repair/Tune Shop
• Two buddy vouchers (50% off all-area lift ticket) for the 2019-20 winter season. (Blackout dates apply. Passholder must be present to redeem vouchers.)
• Discounts on room rates at Little America, Grand America & Sun Valley Properties (2019-20 winter season, on space available basis).

 

[David Chaus]

Hmmm.... that says “50% off unlimited days tickets at all Epic Pass destinations” rather than “Vail-owned destinations” so perhaps it’s inclusive of places like Fernie and Kicking Horse.

Regardless, I really like the Sun & Snow pass, it’s like a mini-MCP. Here’s hoping it’s priced reasonably enough.

 

[DanoT]

In the sparsely populated British Columbia Interior all of the resorts close down in early to mid April due to lack of skiers, not lack of snow. Even Whistler closes one of their mountains in late April and into May due to lack of skiers. People just stop skiing and instead go golfing, play tennis, biking etc. AT WB the valley bike riding is already under way in early May.

 

[Goran M.]

So, how all of this affects Sun Valley ?

Buy or sell ?

 

[Goran M.]

IMHO, Snowbasin is the throw-in here, Vail wanted Sun Valley. I doubt Snowbasin will see much difference in traffic. Not too many people that are traveling from afar to Park City will spend the extra hour plus to come up to Snowbasin.

Why do you think so ?

What is so special about Sun Valley that Vail would want ?

 

[PhillyGuy]

I would’ve agreed with that a year ago before Ikon was announced. However, the equation for Vail changed now that all the SLC resorts except Park City are on MC or Ikon. So I’m sure they really wanted to get a second resort in the SLC area to make Epic more attractive.

Having skied Snowbasin in the last two years, I think that place is not longer a hidden secret. A lot more people are talking about it. And more are visiting. Having Snowbasin on the Epic pass gives skiers access to much better snow than Park City.

 

[Philpug]

Why do you think so ?

What is so special about Sun Valley that Vail would want ?

Sun Valley is an iconic destination resort where Snowbasin because it doesn't offer lodging is fine for day skiers.

 

[Goran M.]

IMHO, Snowbasin is the throw-in here, Vail wanted Sun Valley. I doubt Snowbasin will see much difference in traffic. Not too many people that are traveling from afar to Park City will spend the extra hour plus to come up to Snowbasin.

Sun Valley is an iconic destination resort where Snowbasin because it doesn't offer lodging is fine for day skiers.

I never thought of Sun Valley as an iconic destination but you are absolutely right. There is something about Sun Valley that makes it always feel like "under the radar", "keeping low profile" type of place. And I mean it in a good way, like Telluride in a sense.

Could never figure out what it was - remoteness, (relatively) modest snowfall or the fact that it is in Idaho (when destination skiers think of "western skiing" it is always Colorado, Utah, Montana and Wyoming ...)

Since I plan on using few more days on my MCP, it might be that Sun Valley gets on my radar before "Vail crowds" arrive ...?

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Sun Valley was a created by the railroad AS a destination resort. Lots of folks go there because their families have been going there for generations.

It’s very picturesque.