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RJS

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Fair enough on the criticism. Interesting Alta doesn't get the same criticism as Vail though when you have Snowbird closing way later than Alta when snowpack is good.

Vail has plenty to bitch about, but like I said, they sometimes get a lot of shade for stuff where others seem to get a free pass. Alta example I mentioned above being one of them. I rarely hear people busting on Alta for closing early.

EDIT: to @Uncle Louie point, there is a lot that goes into it. Not sure if I remember correctly, but I remember something about Alta's forest permit limiting them relative the Bird. But still......

Not sure how much of this is a factor for Alta, but there are clearly fewer skiers taking advantage of late season skiing, even though many of us appreciate how incredible good spring skiing is. Not only are there fewer skiers, but my guess is that the proportion of season pass holders to day ticketers goes up close to the end of the season as well. In short, the resorts aren't making as much money, which is one major reason why more resorts don't stay open later (USFS agreements and staffing are both legitimate as well).

If both Snowbird and Alta were open, they would be splitting the late season traffic, and it may not be profitable for either to stay open. On the other hand, if only Snowbird stays open, they consolidate most of the late season traffic into one place, and can (potentially) profitably stay open. Or even if they are operating at a loss at the very end of the season, being the resort that stays open the longest helps them sell more season passes next season.

We have a similar situation in the East where the few resorts that stay open past April, which may include Killington, Wildcat, Sugarloaf, and others, consolidate the late season traffic, allowing the resorts that are open to stay open. Eventually, everyone closes except for Killington. It's impressive how many people still enjoy Killington in May or even early June when just Superstar is open, but there just aren't enough people still skiing that other resorts could also try and stay open very late.
 

TonyPlush

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It almost doesn't matter anymore, on a pow day or weekend, every northern Utah resort will be crowded. Some more than others, but we just have to face the depressing fact that the hordes have discovered Utah.
Which makes me think this Utah crowding issue is, like you said, more about Utah finally getting discovered rather than a Vail or Ikon specific problem.

I must respectfully disagree. The resorts getting snapped up by Vail and Alterra aren't the ones in danger from the very real factors you cite. Snowbasin is in no danger of closing anytime soon. Same with the LCC/BCC resorts. Rather, the duopoly, by concentrating skier visits at their resorts, are accelerating the demise of the independent resorts suffering from the same factors. While it may be good for pass holders in the short to medium term, it is ultimately disastrous for skiing as a sport.
I assume you're talking about the smaller, less popular independents? Meaning not Alta/Snowbird/Jackson Hole/Big Sky/etc.
 

TonyPlush

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One factor about the Utah crowding that I also wonder about though...

This was the Ikon pass's first year, so it was new and exciting for everybody. I have to think this caused a ton of destination skiers, many of which probably went the Epic route for the past several seasons, to go Ikon just to try something new. Considering the Ikon was a total Epic killer in Utah, and you could almost be looking at a one year surge of a HUGE portion of destination skiers finally deciding that 2019 was the year to focus on Utah. Prior to then, the destination skier didn't have a ton of options for Utah except the Mountain Collective, and Ikon even blew that out of the water.

Adding Snowbasin to the Epic pass could distribute some of those Utah destination skiers back to PCMR and Snowbasin next year.

And more so, Utah may not be the most exciting new product on the block in the minds of destination skiers next year, and we could see a return to a little more normal distribution across the country.
 
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HardDaysNight

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Easy to keep a couple of key lifts open. Minimize everything else. Let the managers & supervisors run it. Been there, done that. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

They manage to keep a couple of lifts going for MTB in the summer of which very few people take advantage.

Powder Corp would routinely extend the season at PCMR if conditions warranted it. The last time was 10/11 when they kept things going an extra 2 weeks. Also, the scheduled closing date was April 22-29 typically, not April 7. Powdr employed plenty of foreign H2B workers too.

The more I reflect on the atrocity that is Vail the more ashamed I am that I ever spoke a harsh word about Powdr. I hereby retract any such utterances, including referring to John Cumming as “the idiot son”. Compared with Vail, Powdr were paragons of decency and excellence!
 

Wasatchman

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Powder Corp would routinely extend the season at PCMR if conditions warranted it. The last time was 10/11 when they kept things going an extra 2 weeks. Also, the scheduled closing date was April 22-29 typically, not April 7. Powdr employed plenty of foreign H2B workers too.

The more I reflect on the atrocity that is Vail the more ashamed I am that I ever spoke a harsh word about Powdr. I hereby retract any such utterances, including referring to John Cumming as “the idiot son”. Compared with Vail, Powdr were paragons of decency and excellence!
Vail are no angels but I think you are too harsh on Vail with respect to closing date. SolBright have typically only been closing a week later than PCMR and they don't extend the season.
 

HardDaysNight

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The estimated closing date for Solitude is April 21, 2019 which is two weeks later than PCMR’s April 7 date. It’s not nothing. In any event, closing dates aren’t the only reason for abominating Vail - there are many others!
 

4ster

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I rarely hear people busting on Alta for closing early.
Snowbird probably provides better Spring skiing than Alta & accommodates the local population at that time of year. If interest increases than it may be a different story.
My complaint with Vail/Epic is Kirkwood in California. They close earlier than their other 2 resorts there when Kirkwood provides the far superior Spring conditions.
 

LKLA

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Snowbird probably provides better Spring skiing than Alta & accommodates the local population at that time of year. If interest increases than it may be a different story.
My complaint with Vail/Epic is Kirkwood in California. They close earlier than their other 2 resorts there when Kirkwood provides the far superior Spring conditions.

If it made sense to keep a resort open they would. As you get into March and April, the visitor traffic drops off, more so during the week when it tends to drop off dramatically. This makes it challenging / not economically feasible to keep a resort open (you have labor contracts and a host of other challenges that often also make it nearly impossible to pivot on opening or closing times). But, I don't think resort operators open or close resorts "for shits and giggles" or to piss anyone off. It is tough enough to make a buck as it is!
 
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Wasatchman

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Both of the above have good points.

But @4ster, I disagree with the premise the Snowbird provides better spring skiing than Alta. They're right next to each other basically on the same mountain. It's amazing, when Alta closes in some cases 1-2 months earlier than Snowbird, hardly a peep. In fact, just look at this board. The excuses start flying around defending Alta that there must be a good reason. Vail closes a few weeks earlier than someone else, then Vail gets trashed.

The Kirkwood situation sounds like a legit gripe.

However, I'm no Vail fanboy, but I agree with @LKLA. If Vail could make money keeping their operations open longer they would. They're a publicly traded corporation after all with their #1 goal to make money for their shareholders. And Vail may be a lot of things, but I don't think stupid is one of them so if they could make it work to be open longer, you'd think they would. So probably Vail has decided Kirkwood financially doesn't make sense to keep open longer, where others in the area perhaps decide a longer ski season is a competitive advantage and willing to stay open longer.

As far as PCMR, it's a ghost town the last week of the season And frankly the skiing hasn't been good that last week or two for quite a while anyway. In fact, I would guess PCMR ops already lose money the last few weeks of the season as it is. EDIT: and PCMR closes around the same time as DV. So it's not like the resort next door is staying open longer.

Plenty to complain about Vail, but I just don't think this is one of their bigger issues to complain about.
 
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Tom K.

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& Monday = Sunday. Happened in Tahoe 25 years ago. :)

Same at Mt. Hood Meadows. Fridays, especially, and even Mondays to a lesser extent, are almost "mini-weekends".

With more crowds, I've noticed more agro behavior on the mountain as well.

Two recent examples. Pow day at Brighton last Wed, I was trying to consolidate the line and asked if the two of us could join the party of 2 in front of us in line. The response I got was "the line starts way back there homeslice" as they didn't even bother to look back and see we were in line right behind them.

Second example Friday at PCMR late in the day at 3:30 pm. I stopped to let ski school go through. Got berated by someone for not moving, "hey man, move, the line is supposed to alternate" I couldn't help myself and yelled back, "you need to check yourself, ski school has priority"

With you on the first one. No empty seats on a powder day!

Not so much on the second. A ski school with any PR sense whatsoever follows a few common sense rules about priority: 1) always wait one group before you cut line -- it takes 10 seconds, and looks so good, and 2) if you have a big group, always alternate with the "common folk". Probably best for another thread.
 
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LKLA

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However, I'm no Vail fanboy, but I agree with @LKLA. If Vail could make money keeping their operations open longer they would. They're a publicly traded corporation after all with their #1 goal to make money for their shareholders. And Vail may be a lot of things, but I don't think stupid is one of them so if they could make it work to be open longer, you'd think they would. So probably Vail has decided Kirkwood financially doesn't make sense to keep open longer, where others in the area perhaps decide a longer ski season is a competitive advantage and willing to stay open longer.


Agree.

I am not sure what the difference is between a public or a private ski resort operator when it comes to operating the resort profitably. Do private resorts not need or care to make money - do employees and owners and suppliers work for free?

There is also value to being open during the ski season, more it would seem then there is value to extending the season by a couple of weeks. For example, Magic Mountain in Vermont was closed this past Friday. If you can't ski on a Friday in February then when can you ski!?

If anything, one could reasonably argue that an operator such as Vail could much more realistically operate a resort through tough times (no snow for a couple of seasons) compared to a single mountain or private operator with fewer funding options.
 

Lorenzzo

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VR’s model pushes Epic Pass sales, they’ve booked revenue earlier than other resorts, by the time April comes their incentive is to cut cost. Different model different incentives.

As far as private company vs. public as to motivations and how they’re run, they’re so different I wouldn’t know where to begin. I can’t imagine having experience with both and not seeing that. Ok...begin with disclosure, analysts, quarterly earnings and executive compensation/incentives.
 

Josh Matta

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Fair enough on the criticism. Interesting Alta doesn't get the same criticism as Vail though when you have Snowbird closing way later than Alta when snowpack is good.

Vail has plenty to bitch about, but like I said, they sometimes get a lot of shade for stuff where others seem to get a free pass. Alta example I mentioned above being one of them. I rarely hear people busting on Alta for closing early.

EDIT: to @Uncle Louie point, there is a lot that goes into it. Not sure if I remember correctly, but I remember something about Alta's forest permit limiting them relative the Bird. But still......

Alta doesnt have a set closing date and will stay open longer if they want.

Also the bird's steeper north facing run preserve powder longer and mineral and LC have great exposure for spring skiing.
 

Mike King

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VR’s model pushes Epic Pass sales, they’ve booked revenue earlier than other resorts, by the time April comes their incentive is to cut cost. Different model different incentives.

As far as private company vs. public as to motivations and how they’re run, they’re so different I wouldn’t know where to begin. I can’t imagine having experience with both and not seeing that. Ok...begin with disclosure, analysts, quarterly earnings and executive compensation/incentives.

Vail recently announced they’re planning to keep Breck open as long as possible— not just this season, but going forward.
 

LewyM

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Well, simply because between SV and JH, we'll log at least 20 days next season.

The rest of the resorts will be on an "opportunity" basis.

So my question remains as to whether anybody thinks any of the passes will cover both JH and SV anymore.

Pick where you are going to be during holidays, then buy full at that one and local at the other. Or if you are going to restricted locations on either pass (i.e., SV and JH), buy the full version of both. And you have both Crystal and Stevens effectively for the price of two destination trips you are taking anyway. Work in a 3rd destination (zip up to Whistler once or twice) and you make out well. If you have the time and ability to travel, buying into both universes isn't crazy.
 

Lorenzzo

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Vail recently announced they’re planning to keep Breck open as long as possible— not just this season, but going forward.
I might have applied my comments to UT and similar situations. Late skiing at PCMR is locals who bought their Epic passes long ago, it’s low elevation, they can’t expect to compete late season against Snowbird or move Epic passes by keeping open. CO different late ops can easily be tied to Epic Pass sales motivation for next year,. They better be worried about that and they have another late resort to worry about which may not be in their mix next year. Different calculus.

I guess somehow they’re able to find people to work late at Breck. If they thought keeping other resorts open might greatly stimulate Epic Pass sales they’d keep them open. If they felt they could compete with Snowbird they might do it differently in UT.
 
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LKLA

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VR’s model pushes Epic Pass sales, they’ve booked revenue earlier than other resorts, by the time April comes their incentive is to cut cost. Different model different incentives.

As far as private company vs. public as to motivations and how they’re run, they’re so different I wouldn’t know where to begin. I can’t imagine having experience with both and not seeing that. Ok...begin with disclosure, analysts, quarterly earnings and executive compensation/incentives.

It has nothing to do with when the Epic passes are sold. The "incentive" is to operate profitably, be it early or late or in the middle of the week or on weekends. The reality however is that some resorts are able to operate more nimbly than others and pivot on opening and closings more seamlessly. Some mountains have a certain demo/client base or are located in certain areas (local employee base) that make it more feasible for them to be open later in the season or to be closed during the middle of the week.

Btw, how is a mountain owned by a public company any different than a privately owned mountain when it comes to the need to make money in order to pay taxes, capital expenditures, wages, suppliers and have the necessary liquidity to operate effectively for the long term?
 

New2

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Alta doesnt have a set closing date and will stay open longer if they want.
They've published a closing date: https://www.alta.com/the-mountain/mountain-info. And I think over the past 5 years, at least, they've stuck to that closing date, right?

Also the bird's steeper north facing run preserve powder longer and mineral and LC have great exposure for spring skiing.
Agreed. Snowbird's positioned a bit better for late spring and summer.

It has nothing to do with when the Epic passes are sold. The "incentive" is to operate profitably, be it early or late or in the middle of the week or on weekends.
I disagree here. Vail's primary responsibility is to maximize shareholder value, which it does largely through the Epic pass. They are ready and willing to operate on days that will be marginally unprofitable for the current season if they believe it increases long-term value. Keeping Breck open later contributes to that long-term strategy in a couple ways--1) it sends a message to A-Basin, with whom its likely Vail is still negotiating, that Vail is ready and willing to compete for spring skiers if A-Basin doesn't renew. 2) In the event that A-Basin doesn't renew, it gives Front Range skiers who value spring skiing reassurance that they'll still be able to get it if they renew their Epic passes.

Btw, how is a mountain owned by a public company any different than a privately owned mountain when it comes to the need to make money in order to pay taxes, capital expenditures, wages, suppliers and have the necessary liquidity to operate effectively for the long term?
The overall operational challenges are similar, of course. A public company has a duty to maximize value. A nonprofit has certain tax advantages. A private owner can do as the owner wishes (as long as they can afford it).
To bring it back to the title of the thread--the Holdings, as private owners, could've kept losing money at Snowbasin as long as they wanted to (and with the Sinclair Oil money, they could've afforded it for a long time). Instead, they've decided to lower pass prices drastically and partner with other groups (first Powder Alliance, then MCP, now Epic) in order to introduce more people to the mountain and turn a profit. But they're in no way obligated to maximize value. Whereas Vail is.
 
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Lorenzzo

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They've published a closing date: https://www.alta.com/the-mountain/mountain-info. And I think over the past 5 years, at least, they've stuck to that closing date, right?


Agreed. Snowbird's positioned a bit better for late spring and summer.


I disagree here. Vail's primary responsibility is to maximize shareholder value, which it does largely through the Epic pass. They are ready and willing to operate on days that will be marginally unprofitable for the current season if they believe it increases long-term value. Keeping Breck open later contributes to that long-term strategy in a couple ways--1) it sends a message to A-Basin, with whom its likely Vail is still negotiating, that Vail is ready and willing to compete for spring skiers if A-Basin doesn't renew. 2) In the event that A-Basin doesn't renew, it gives Front Range skiers who value spring skiing reassurance that they'll still be able to get it if they renew their Epic passes.


The overall operational challenges are similar, of course. A public company has a duty to maximize value. A nonprofit has certain tax advantages. A private owner can do as the owner wishes (as long as they can afford it).
To bring it back to the title of the thread--the Holdings, as private owners, could've kept losing money at Snowbasin as long as they wanted to (and with the Sinclair Oil money, they could've afforded it for a long time). Instead, they've decided to lower pass prices drastically and partner with other groups (first Powder Alliance, then MCP, now Epic) in order to introduce more people to the mountain and turn a profit. But they're in no way obligated to maximize value. Whereas Vail is.
I agree it has everything to do with the timing of Vail resorts revenue. How could it not. And anyone that says public and private companies operate the same ain’t been out there.
 

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