Sun Valley, Snowbasin going Epic

[4ster]

Weather is actually a more important factor in resorts' bottom lines than economic cycles.

Somewhat true.
Not enough snow or frequent storms & people think skiing sucks. This seems especially true in Utah where people will turn out in droves during the worst weather & most difficult conditions to deal with. This on days that only a portion of the resort may be open, all on the notion that it’s a “powder day!” Why?, because the myth of powder days as presented by the media & marketing hype is what skiing is all about. “Greatest Snow on Earth” & all.
During my years in Tahoe, California skiers seemed more “fair weather” oriented leaving the storm days for the hardy locals, I think that may have changed.
Too much snow & the roads are difficult or closed, lifts are buried or can’t operate because of wind. Too many of these days impact the bottom line adversely as much as not enough snow.

Friday was the busiest non-holiday weekday I have ever seen at Snowbasin. My brother was at Snowbird & said they were parked out by 9:30. Although it was busy all week it was nothing like Friday & to be honest the skiing was far from great unless you like crowded groomers or chunky, chopped up crud. I left after a few groomers & one backcountry run which was limited to low elevation & low angle because of ridge winds, even that wasn’t great. I stayed home today.
Again, no one will be skiing in April & May when things are really good & most EPIC resorts will be closed with huge snow depths .

 

[4ster]

Meanwhile at Northstar...

Photo courtesy of @Alexzn

 

[Lorenzzo]

Seems Friday is the new Saturday at UT resorts. ^^^ Social media event following big snow?

 

[4ster]

^^^ Seems Friday is the new Saturday at UT resorts.

& Monday = Sunday. Happened in Tahoe 25 years ago.

 

[Wasatchman]

With more crowds, I've noticed more agro behavior on the mountain as well.

Two recent examples. Pow day at Brighton last Wed, I was trying to consolidate the line and asked if the two of us could join the party of 2 in front of us in line. The response I got was "the line starts way back there homeslice" as they didn't even bother to look back and see we were in line right behind them.

Second example Friday at PCMR late in the day at 3:30 pm. I stopped to let ski school go through. Got berated by someone for not moving, "hey man, move, the line is supposed to alternate" I couldn't help myself and yelled back, "you need to check yourself, ski school has priority"

 

[4ster]

With more crowds, I've noticed more agro behavior on the mountain as well.

Two recent examples. Pow day at Brighton last Wed, I was trying to consolidate the line and asked if the two of us could join the party of 2 in front of us in line. The response I got was "the line starts way back there homeslice" as they didn't even bother to look back and see we were in line right behind them.

Second example Friday at PCMR late in the day at 3:30 pm. I stopped to let ski school go through. Got berated by someone for not moving, "hey man, move, the line is supposed to alternate" I couldn't help myself and yelled back, "you need to check yourself, ski school has priority"

& I gave a friendly reminder to someone who thought they could just go in front of 10 people to join their friend...
... in the singles line.

 

[HardDaysNight]

It’s interesting to hear that DV has been taking strain this season. PCMR overall is clearly down crowd-wise. Likely to be the Ikon effect I suspect. Traffic today at PCMR was insane but the skier numbers on the mountain not that bad and about what one would expect for a Saturday. The FIS World Champs finals in half pipe were on beginning 11 so that probably accounts for it.

What screwed Park City was the Olympics in 2002. Prior to that no one had heard of us. Tragedy really. Hope to Christ it’s not repeated.

 

[Itinerant skier]

That's an interesting question. In my mind, it all comes down to ownership. Vail has no "control" of Sun Valley, Snowbasin, Telluride, Fernie, Kicking Horse, or any of its other pass partners. Neither does Alterra "control" Alta, Snowbird, Brighton, Aspen, Jackson Hole, Big Sky, Revelstoke, SkiBig3, Copper, Eldora, Sugarloaf, Sunday River, Sugarbush, or any of its other pass partners. Notice how many of the great resorts on the Ikon Pass aren't owned by Alterra. The pass partners get to decide when their contracts end whether to stay on their current pass, switch to a new one, or forgo being on someone else's pass product all together.

Skiing is a difficult business to succeed in, and is facing enormous pressures in the form of shorter seasons and increasing weather variability due to climate change, a steady or declining number of skiers, and an aging population. Consolidation helps decrease variability in weather and spread out risk if some of the resorts you own in one part of the country are having a really bad season, and other resorts are having a good season. Weather is actually a more important factor in resorts' bottom lines than economic cycles. I don't love the idea of a duopoly between Vail and Alterra, but we are a long ways away from that. Some consolidation is necessary, I believe, for many resorts to survive in this new world.

I must respectfully disagree. The resorts getting snapped up by Vail and Alterra aren't the ones in danger from the very real factors you cite. Snowbasin is in no danger of closing anytime soon. Same with the LCC/BCC resorts. Rather, the duopoly, by concentrating skier visits at their resorts, are accelerating the demise of the independent resorts suffering from the same factors. While it may be good for pass holders in the short to medium term, it is ultimately disastrous for skiing as a sport.

 

[Daniel]

IKON has had a huge impact at Solitude this year. No question about it. There is very little solitude at Solitude anymore unless you go sidecountry.

Unfortunately, all Utah resorts ate getting packed out. I refuse to ski Saturdays anymore, although I have lucky luxury of being flexible. In particular, I view the Cottonwood resorts as being unskiable on a weekend anymorea with Park City and Ogden area resorts more tolerable but still crowded on weekends.

It almost doesn't matter anymore, on a pow day or weekend, every northern Utah resort will be crowded. Some more than others, but we just have to face the depressing fact that the hordes have discovered Utah.

Solitude's car parks have filled up seven of the last eight days. Furthermore, six of those seven days the canyon road has been parked extensively up and down canyon from Solitude's bases and the seventh day parking along the canyon road was not permitted, as UDOT's massive uber-snowblower vehicle followed by a road grader were doing their best to shift the enormous amount of snow lining both sides of the BCC road. Mind you, this occurred during a non-holiday period, although 68" in five days will bring out heaps of locals. The number one factor in the huge escalation of skiers and snowboarders on Solitude's slopes is IKON pass holders. Other factors, in my opinion, are the red-hot economy, year after year of rapid growth along the Wasatch Front and adjoining areas, defectors from LCC, and an above average snow year up to this point.

 

[Daniel]

I agree that the tourist traffic to Snowbasin will probably be about the same as it was with the MCP travelers. The added traffic will be the park city local. The epic Pass tourists we’ll maybe spend a day or two at Snowbasin but I would bet most of Park city locals with an epic pass will use the maximum amount even if that is seven days. Why? Because snowbasin is a better mountain than Park city & they know it. I have encountered over a number of years many Park city/deer Valley residents that ski as much at snowbasin as they do at home because it is a better mountain.
Rode the gondola with a group of young park city 10 to 12-year-olds a few years ago. I asked them what brought them to Snowbasin and they said “we go to Park city for the terrain parks, we come to Snowbasin to ski the mountain“.

I'm pretty loyal to the Cottonwood Canyon ski areas but if I had a fictitious Epic Pass that provided me with 10 days of skiing/riding at Utah ski resorts annually and included Deer Valley, my breakdown of usage would be Snowbasin 7 days, Deer Valley 3 days, and PC 0 days. Twenty days of annual usage might stimulate me to carve out a single day at PC.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Again, no one will be skiing in April & May when things are really good & most EPIC resorts will be closed with huge snow depths .

Did you not hear? Breck is planning to be open into MAY.

 

[4ster]

Did you not hear? Breck is planning to be open into MAY.

Good to hear! I think Ikon maybe has put some pressure on for that. Let’s see what Epic does with Kirkwood & their massive Snowpack. They closed early April in the record 2017 year.

 

[Wasatchman]

Good to hear! I think Ikon maybe has put some pressure on for that. Let’s see what Epic does with Kirkwood & their massive Snowpack. They closed early April in the record 2017 year.

Someone who works at Vail told me their problem is that they need to decide closing date before season starts for planning purposes. They have lots of international workers on foreign work visas, etc. and so they can't simply just decide to stay open longer if the snowpack is good. They simply wouldn't have the staff to stay open unless they plan before season starts. Although it doesn't make it any less frustrating, it at least makes more sense and less irritating when I heard that.

And even Alta has a set closing date regardless of snowpack. Only the Bird I believe simply stays open as long as they can in Utah.

 

[Philpug]

Did you not hear? Breck is planning to be open into MAY.

This should decrease the A-Basin crowds significantly.

 

[4ster]

Someone who works at Vail told me their problem is that they need to decide closing date before season starts for planning purposes. They have lots of international workers on foreign work visas, etc. and so they can't simply just decide to stay open longer if the snowpack is good. They simply wouldn't have the staff to stay open unless they plan before season starts. Although it doesn't make it any less frustrating, it at least makes more sense and less irritating when I heard that.

And even Alta has a set closing date regardless of snowpack. Only the Bird I believe simply stays open as long as they can in Utah.

Easy to keep a couple of key lifts open. Minimize everything else. Let the managers & supervisors run it. Been there, done that. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

They manage to keep a couple of lifts going for MTB in the summer of which very few people take advantage.

 

[Philpug]

Easy to keep a couple of key lifts open. Minimize everything else. Let the managers & supervisors run it. Been there, done that.

It would be nice to have one of the Epic/Vail Tahoe resorts open late in the year. There are a lot of Epic pass holders that buy Rose and/or Ikon spring passes...and food and drinks at the reasort. I am confident staffing would not be an issue, there are are enough Kirkwood/Heavenly/N* employees that would be willing to work the extra hours.

 

[Lorenzzo]

With more crowds, I've noticed more agro behavior on the mountain as well.

Two recent examples. Pow day at Brighton last Wed, I was trying to consolidate the line and asked if the two of us could join the party of 2 in front of us in line. The response I got was "the line starts way back there homeslice" as they didn't even bother to look back and see we were in line right behind them.

Second example Friday at PCMR late in the day at 3:30 pm. I stopped to let ski school go through. Got berated by someone for not moving, "hey man, move, the line is supposed to alternate" I couldn't help myself and yelled back, "you need to check yourself, ski school has priority"

Easy to keep a couple of key lifts open. Minimize everything else. Let the managers & supervisors run it. Been there, done that. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

They manage to keep a couple of lifts going for MTB in the summer of which very few people take advantage.

Vail is like many/most/all companies in that they say what's effective in deflecting even if it doesn't align with what's correct.

 

[Uncle Louie]

Easy to keep a couple of key lifts open. Minimize everything else. Let the managers & supervisors run it. Been there, done that. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

They manage to keep a couple of lifts going for MTB in the summer of which very few people take advantage.

Not always so easy.

In CO a lot of land under the trails are on US Forest Service land and is somewhat regulated. I've been out of the loop on this for awhile but when I was working out there there were designated closing days for water conservation and other issues. I'm guessing the recent announcement that Keystone is going to close earlier in the season than normal and Breck is closing later than normal was a "trade in days".

 

[tromano]

Somewhat true.
Not enough snow or frequent storms & people think skiing sucks. This seems especially true in Utah where people will turn out in droves during the worst weather & most difficult conditions to deal with. This on days that only a portion of the resort may be open, all on the notion that it’s a “powder day!” Why?, because the myth of powder days as presented by the media & marketing hype is what skiing is all about. “Greatest Snow on Earth” & all.
During my years in Tahoe, California skiers seemed more “fair weather” oriented leaving the storm days for the hardy locals, I think that may have changed.
Too much snow & the roads are difficult or closed, lifts are buried or can’t operate because of wind. Too many of these days impact the bottom line adversely as much as not enough snow.

Friday was the busiest non-holiday weekday I have ever seen at Snowbasin. My brother was at Snowbird & said they were parked out by 9:30. Although it was busy all week it was nothing like Friday & to be honest the skiing was far from great unless you like crowded groomers or chunky, chopped up crud. I left after a few groomers & one backcountry run which was limited to low elevation & low angle because of ridge winds, even that wasn’t great. I stayed home today.
Again, no one will be skiing in April & May when things are really good & most EPIC resorts will be closed with huge snow depths .

Personally I prefer skiing when you can see, after the snow is tracked out bumped up a tad and has blown around for a few days. It actually becomes more consistent and fun.

Spring corn is really good snow too. Its sad that most resorts close just as the best corn skiing is forming up.

 

[Wasatchman]

Fair enough on the criticism. Interesting Alta doesn't get the same criticism as Vail though when you have Snowbird closing way later than Alta when snowpack is good.

Vail has plenty to bitch about, but like I said, they sometimes get a lot of shade for stuff where others seem to get a free pass. Alta example I mentioned above being one of them. I rarely hear people busting on Alta for closing early.

EDIT: to @Uncle Louie point, there is a lot that goes into it. Not sure if I remember correctly, but I remember something about Alta's forest permit limiting them relative the Bird. But still......