Suicide in ski town article.

[Wendy]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/23/opinion/loneliness-political-polarization.html

The message in this article is very important: It is not about looking for a community you feel at home in; it is about choosing to invest in the community in which you find yourself.

My heart goes out to anyone touched by suicide. Depression is a horrible illness that still carries a stigma, and it shouldn’t.

 

[David Chaus]

This is part of a generational trend I am seeing as a counselor. The generations before baby boomers had greater social integrations with their neighborhood/village/town, the average person knew a number of other people and had regular interactions with others(shopping at a small grocer, seeing a barber/hairdresser, knowing their doctor, going to bridge club/bowling league/PTA/Kiwanis/church/synagogue. Boomers became more mobile and moved more, disengaging from many of these connnections. Then Gen X ,and now Millennials have grown up with lots of connections on social media and very little in the way of IRL interactions.

There have been a number of studies showing the rates of depression and anxiety increase the more isolated people become. Further, online interactions do not have the same benefits as face-to-face interactions. Loneliness kills. We have evolved (or were made perfectly in God’s image, depending upon your understanding of the cosmos) to be in social groups; we require a certain amount of contact and connection with others for our mental health stability. YMMV.

 

[cantunamunch]

The message in this article is very important: It is not about looking for a community you feel at home in; it is about choosing to invest in the community in which you find yourself..

The message in the last paragraph that @Wendy points out, reads, to me, less on the general societal trend @David Chaus points out, than on the trend for individuals to invest less in creating and maintaining social connection as those same individuals age.

I mean it makes sense on a self-interested investment level: there simply isn't time to get a ROI from a mature friendship, not remotely comparable to crashing bikes or boats together as kids, not remotely comparable to schoolmates. So why invest? Well, 'coz loneliness is what you get otherwise.

In that sense the small-town message earlier in the op-ed makes sense for both individuals arriving into a community and existing members as well.

 

[Core2]

a new article on atlitude and suicide/depression correlation. interesting stuff.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...U_waqCO3i57WDmaljLTShoSlJUXY3pGw4pUZDckGkEWC0

 

[DanoT]

a new article on atlitude and suicide/depression correlation. interesting stuff.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...U_waqCO3i57WDmaljLTShoSlJUXY3pGw4pUZDckGkEWC0

According to a report linked to the above article, the highest suicide rate in the US is in Montana which is definitely not the highest elevation. In fact Missoula is only 3200'asl. It could be the romanticized Cowboy Culture (see Kevin Costner in Red October) that draws people to the state to get a fresh start (that and reasonable housing costs and no sales tax). And then people's troubles end up following them and their life is not really any better etc......

Also with a small population like Montana it might not take many incidents to move the numbers.

 

[scott43]

So why invest? Well, 'coz loneliness is what you get otherwise.

Hey...get off my lawn!!

 

[mdf]

Hey...get off my lawn!!

Don't you mean....

 

[dbostedo]

According to a report linked to the above article, the highest suicide rate in the US is in Montana which is definitely not the highest elevation. In fact Missoula is only 3200'asl. It could be the romanticized Cowboy Culture (see Kevin Costner in Red October) that draws people to the state to get a fresh start (that and reasonable housing costs and no sales tax). And then people's troubles end up following them and their life is not really any better etc......

Also with a small population like Montana it might not take many incidents to move the numbers.

I don't think anything in the article suggested a perfect correlation of suicide rate with altitude, or implied that altitude is the sole reason for any particular person. They are just talking about the idea that higher altitudes can be a contributing factor leading to a higher suicide rate. There's a lot of noise in the data, particularly if you're looking state-wide for those states.

 

[Sibhusky]

Winter is pretty dark here. The days are short and we're on the western edge of the timezone. And when you combine it with habitually overcast, I think altitude as an environmental factor counts pretty little. Substance abuse, now, that's a biggie. As is the number of people in groups with high suicide rates aside from the State -- Native Americans (lots of reservations where the income level is low and substance abuse is high); veterans (one of the highest States when it comes to military service); and the ubiquity of firearms -- even the Democrats own them. So, it's dark, you're poor, you're depressed, and the means is handy.

https://dphhs.mt.gov/Portals/85/suicideprevention/SuicideinMontana.pdf

 

[BS Slarver]

^^^^ this ! Montana’s issue is hardly altitude or ski town related

 

[Jim McDonald]

(see Kevin Costner in Red October)

???

 

[DanoT]

(see Kevin Costner in Red October)

???

That is me that you are quoting. I think the actor I was referring to was Costner. But anyway one of the Soviet submarine officers aboard Red October, who after they defected and turned over the sub to the US, he was planning on getting a cattle ranch in Montana but then he was shot by a KGB agent on board the sub and never made it. An excellent movie, imo. Actually the movie tittle is The Hunt for Red October.

 

[Mike King]

Correlation is association, not causation.

 

[raytseng]

Correlation is association, not causation.

To be fair though, the article does spends the about half on the critics on the theory, and talks about the nuances rather than oversimplifying things into a single-factor.
The webpage title is displayed as "The Controversial relationship", the article title says "Mystery" and says in the subtitle has the weasal of "or is something else is going on?" The article is pretty good in just showing the thought landscape and my takeaway is that currently there is no consensus on the theory, both proven or disproven.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Overcast gloomy weather depresses the most upbeat, add in “recreational” (cough cough) pharmaceuticals, alcohol and some underlying problems......

This is not rocket science, this is a problem in the making.

Sometimes the simple direct views are the correct ones no matter what you call them.

As to the solution, thats not as simple as it involves in addressing those same issue. My first bet would be to address the underlying issues, the most difficult yet easiest to achieve in results. The rest in reverse order will follow suit, except for the weather, though man kind has has tried for eons.

 

[raytseng]

Please consider that for many this is an illness/disease, and the sufferer is processing a warped or distorted mental view of things that happen. 99.99% of peers of a suicidal person in the exact same environmental conditions are "normal" and do not have the same bleak outlook.

These are those who are still suicidal despite all measures they should be fine and happy. Just like how some people in third world are "happy" despite measures that their life is terrible and they have been dealt terrible cards. This population of suicidal folks will not be "cured" by changing these simplistic environmental factors, but will likely require serious psychiatric/behavioral work by the person to get better/ perhaps with some phara or biological help too if there is a biological factor at play.

That being said, I would agree if there are mechanisms to get Large Swaths of people down a couple points, in aggregate, this has the potential for the greatest societal gains; and overall societal happiness is a good thing to improve; but increasing overall happiness is a different concept decoupled by a few dimensions from helping those at risk of suicide and where a large chunk of their points truly stems from illness/disease that you can't attribute to socioeconomical or environmental factors.

 

[New2]

Certainly there are many confounding factors influencing suicide rates, and the available data is awfully messy. But it sure looks like there's a legitimate signal in there amidst the noise. And part of the reason that suicide in particular is showing up is that we do collect relatively good data on suicide. Depression rates may well follow similar patterns, but we don't have reliable incidence data to look at for depression.

One very interesting thing the Vice article brought up is that Prozac, Paxil, and Lexapro lose efficacy at altitude in rat studies--it's early yet to make the leap to human effects, but it definitely bears further investigation and I think anyone living at elevation and taking antidepressants needs to know about the possibility of reduced efficacy.

 

[Jacob]

That is me that you are quoting. I think the actor I was referring to was Costner. But anyway one of the Soviet submarine officers aboard Red October, who after they defected and turned over the sub to the US, he was planning on getting a cattle ranch in Montana but then he was shot by a KGB agent on board the sub and never made it. An excellent movie, imo. Actually the movie tittle is The Hunt for Red October.

You're thinking of Sam Neill, not Kevin Costner.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Please consider that for many this is an illness/disease, and the sufferer is processing a warped or distorted mental view of things that happen. 99.99% of peers of a suicidal person in the exact same environmental conditions are "normal" and do not have the same bleak outlook.

These are those who are still suicidal despite all measures they should be fine and happy. Just like how some people in third world are "happy" despite measures that their life is terrible and they have been dealt terrible cards. This population of suicidal folks will not be "cured" by changing these simplistic environmental factors, but will likely require serious psychiatric/behavioral work by the person to get better/ perhaps with some phara or biological help too if there is a biological factor at play.

That being said, I would agree if there are mechanisms to get Large Swaths of people down a couple points, in aggregate, this has the potential for the greatest societal gains; and overall societal happiness is a good thing to improve; but increasing overall happiness is a different concept decoupled by a few dimensions from helping those at risk of suicide and where a large chunk of their points truly stems from illness/disease that you can't attribute to socioeconomical or environmental factors.

I agree for the most part. Having it very directly effect my life several years back with a parent (and a few others), here are some important things to understand.

Hindsight does allow you to see small indictors of the pending action. They will be seen by many but without seeing all it is not intervenable. This does not mean preventable but may give you a chance to intervene.

IMHO I don’t see it a disease but as a thought process with a correct ending for those involved for the most part. (If you don’t understand this you are likely not at risk). At some point that process has gone down the wrong path. To be fair some it is caused by illness and medication does help, other its logic gone wrong (amongst other contributing factors).

Prevention, watch for key factor (most times small little comments out of context at an odd moment). At these times a small friendly/helpful response will prevent an errant choice.

The second is talk about it after the fact as a heads up and eduction for others, as society tends to down play suicide as taboo. It is the dark secret.

Personally, I know of 4-5 that have happened to people I directly know some closely, others at a distance, however, the most common thing is those odd moments leading up to the events.

One other thing it is a choice (whether we agree with it or not is different) of the misguided individual, in some cases it is the right one in their eyes. These are the one with the least indicators and likely most successful.

For your own sanity remember this, accept it (in those instances) so that you, yourself does not follow down the same rabbit hole!

 

[DanoT]

You're thinking of Sam Neill, not Kevin Costner.

Yeah, I should have known that it wasn't Kevin Costner because most of his movies, imo are duds.