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Suggestions for replacing our new Subaru Outback with something not so fragile/frustrating

Crank

Making fresh tracks
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Like a few others here, I had a 2003 Highlander. Kept it for 13 years and 200k. I live a gear intensive life - always loading up with amplifiers and PA for playing music. I do videography and throw cases of gear: lighting kits, cables, tripods, stands, etc in and sometimes take that stuff on long drives for jobs. Load kayaks and bikes and guitars for general vacations. And then skis gear of course. Early season we often bring bikes and skis.

I did replace the rear struts after 10 years. One time I way overloaded it with a treadmill we purchased. Should have had that sucker delivered.

Last year I replaced it with a used Highlander with 80K and it has been great. I have not yet driven it out west but regularly drive up to NH and VT and other points north. Used to take the '03 up to CAN for ski trips and as far as Toronto for work.

Bottom line for me is I think a crossover SUV like the Highlander is a better and more comfortable highway ride than any of the truck based SUVs. And here are you going to be doing most of your driving? I grew up driving in the snow in rear wheel drive vehicles and then front wheel drive vehicles. I have complete confidence driving in snow in my Highlander. My better half drives a Subaru Forester and it's AWD may be better than my 4WD but I have never slid off the road nor lost control. The Highlander is definitely the more comfortable road trip car and the suspension does feel better with a couple of mountain bikes on our hitch mounted tray rack.
 

nay

dirt heel pusher
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I appreciate your and Tball's recommendation of that model Lexus! I absolutely see the value in one of those in the right location and if I still lived in the Sierras or Rockies I could absolutely see owning a Land Cruiser, 4Runner, Sequoia, Lexus 470, etc. I could see modifying it enough to hit CO trails and Moab regularly plus having a beast to get me thru the biggest storms. Where I live, I'm so not in that place right now. If I was to prioritize our needs for the next few years, it's a somewhat fuel efficient suv/crossover or even a straight up sedan that will never leave the pavement and will get tons of miles racked on it driving back and forth between our beach house and NC mountain house. Even with all of the kayaking and MTBing I do, it's always paved parking areas so my vehicles rarely ever touch dirt. 98% of those miles will be us driving very well maintained roads and usually with 600-700 lbs of occupants and cargo max, and really, most of the times more like 500 lbs. It won't be a work truck or haul a trailer. I do hear what you are saying when you suggest to look under a 4Runner and Highlander and compare the suspension components as I'm sure they are substantially more beefy. I'm sure if I compared the suspension of a Tacoma with a F350 it would also be a night and day difference but both are capable so it really comes down to what is the best tool for the job. There is a part of me that at times wonders if we wouldn't be better off just getting a nice Lexus GS Sedan for all of our smooth road, highway driving we do and then using our older RX350 for the Colorado road trip. Even after using that as a full on work truck (you don't even want to know how many boxes of tile that thing has hauled without issue) it's proven to be far more capable under load than our Outback.

Over the past few days we've looked at several more of the midsized crossover/Suvs as they really seem to be a perfect fit for our needs in spite of our experience with the Outback. If you look at all of them in that class, the Outback has the lowest payload of any of them. We looked at the Ford Flex and Kia Sorento and they only had 1,100ish lbs and most of the other are in the 1,100-1,300 range with the Highlander actually having one of the highest payloads. The one we are looking at trading in our Outback for has a 1525 lb payload and I just didn't see anything in this class that seemed to check all of the boxes for our needs like this one does. I realize I'm putting a lot of faith in numbers here but that's because I didn't pay any attention to the numbers when I bought the Outback as I didn't think it would be an issue. Like a fool I recalled beating the snot out of my high school buddies mom's Subarus in the 90's driving up to our party spots all over the trails around S. Tahoe and then more recently buying into all of the commercials and marketing literature, so I just figured if my Lexus was capable, certainly a Subaru would be much more so. I mean, look at their Rally pedigree. Isn't all Subaru engineering Rally inspired (damn, I was an idiot!)? Not wanting to make that mistake, I'm trying to at least process a little data and make an educated guess as to what will make a good sedanesque suv (which is what we really need first and foremost) and then what has a chance of being able to handle maybe 100-200 lbs more than what caused our Subaru suspension to pancake on our ski trips. Given what I've researched, I'm feeling really good about the Highlander being the perfect fit for us. BTW- a number of Highlander owners on the Toyota forums switched from Outbacks to the Highlander with similar issues/frustrations/hatred with their Subarus and said that the HL is far more capable. Some of them are based in Denver and drive up I70 regularly and some of them may even be on this forum so I'm fairly confident that this will be a more substantial vehicle (maybe not in its snow prowess as Subarus are legit). I will definitely pay more attention when we are packing for our trip but I have no doubt we will be far below the max payload of the Highlander for the drive out to Colorado. One thing's for sure though, if we ever move back out west, I'll be all for getting a more rugged 4x4!

Get a Ford Explorer. Your kids are going to get too big to tolerate sitting in a hatchback rear seat and you are going to want them as far away from you as possible.

The easiest thing is to just upgrade the Subaru suspension. Even if you bought a more capable 4x4, and I can’t recommend the ‘03-‘07 Sequoia highly enough at its price points as an off the charts value, you’d still want to upgrade the suspension.

I went from getting on the bumpstops on highway dips in the Sequoia to 6 people, 200 lbs of dogs, roof rack, bike rack, etc. while still being able to wheel it for about $700.

C32D97B8-4EF8-4BDA-B762-4D4910A10CC3.jpeg
 

Core2

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4runner or Taco is an investment these days. No other vehicle depreciates less than these two trucks, if you find one let me know.
 

tball

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^^^ Great stuff in the last few posts about Toyota 4x4's, too good to be stuck at the bottom of this thread. I'll start a new thread and ask the mods to move over last few posts.
 

nay

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I agree with @Muleski that Cruisers are not remotely needy. I get a chuckle out of the OCD on the Cruiser forums since the point is how much abuse they take without blinking.

Those pics I post beating the living crap out of my truck...I get back on the highway and it’s straight as an arrow at 80 mph. Over 13 years. This is a class of one.

I did my own alignment ten years ago and haven’t touched it since. Fluid changes, spark plugs, wires. 2 front end axle bearing rebuilds. It has never seen a shop since I’ve owned it.

That’s it in 13 years of ownership from 105k-250K. On 37” tires. I paid $13,800 for it back then. Except for my mods, it is exactly what it was when I bought it.

419AFCBA-85FF-45B9-8DF9-1C5B9AE4BB7F.jpeg


Plus you can repair trail damage with a crowbar and creative dolly use. That Dynamat on the body panels keeps the crowbar from creating dent punches while you pop those things back out.

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Swipe some Durabak over the scratches and ready for more.
 
Thread Starter
TS
surfandski

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I wanted to check back in and give an update. The Highlander is rocking our world and we are so happy with this purchase! We've already put 2500 miles on in the month we've owned it with everything from a far more loaded down than our Outback ever was, trip from our Clearwater to Asheville home, to a recent kayak/MTB/camping trip. It is so solid on the highway and gave an even better ride when loaded down on the FL-NC trip vs getting down right scary when the Subaru was loaded with less gear. This vehicle is performing and exceeding our needs exactly like we had hoped the Subaru would have and I don't think a drive goes by that one of us doesn't comment on how much we love this car! I still say that if I lived out west where I could offroad, I'd have gone with a 4 Runner but given that so much of our driving is without any gear, this really ended up being the perfect vehicle for our current needs. The Highlander may not be a 4 Runner but I'd say it's closer to a 4 Runner than it is to an Outback. Maybe when our Lexus dies we'll replace it with a 4 Runner and have the best of both worlds but for now I couldn't ask for anything more than what this Highlander provides us. I really appreciate all of the suggestions in this thread but especially want to thank the Highlander owners for opening out eyes.

I do think the Subaru could have worked if there were only 2 of us in the family. Interestingly enough, we have Week Of Rivers this week and after paddling the Nantahala today with a good sized group, while loading boats on our cars I noticed that the US Whitewater Center's Subaru parked next to me had totally bald tires (just like the slicks we returned from Colorado with) and just like mine, the fronts were still good. I was talking to the them about my suspension/tire issues and the lady on the other side of me who had a Forester overheard and said they had the exact same issue with their rear tires wearing out. The common denominator is they were all the latest Gen Subarus and we all road trip around the Southeast carrying our gear.

Only thing left is to get it in some snow in January and the new Michelin Defenders that came on it sound like they will do just fine!
 

Monique

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Glad you found a vehicle that works for you!
 

DanoT

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@surfandski , congrats on the new Highlander. In my experience Toyota 4X4, AWD are bulletproof regardless of car model or system.
 

Blue Streak

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2011 Subaru Outback 3.6R. Love it. But I use it for the purpose for which it was intended: hauling ass up I-70, US 40, Hwy 9, or Colorado 82, with a roof rack full of skis and a hitch rack for bikes.
I am delighted to have down-sized from a very comfortable and extremely durable Chevy Silverado.
The secret to life is leaving behind stuff you don’t really need.
 

EricG

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We also found our Subie suspension lacking. Our current Subies, 16 Crosstrek & 16 Forester both run King springs with KYB shocks. Much better for handling the heavier loads.
 

Monique

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For any Subie haters out there - the control center (radio, map, etc) on my 2018 Outback just died for realz. There had been a few times when I started the car and the screen wouldn't load, but it always came back eventually. I had been told they couldn't do anything unless the screen was actively off at the time.

Anyway, apparently this is a Known Problem, and so the new and improved ones are on backorder. Meaning I can't actually even listen to radio or use an AUX cable during that time. Oh, and we tried a system reset for the car (aka futz with battery) to see if it would help, so now the clock is wrong - and as near as I can tell, you need the console controls to reset the clock.

They expect it to take 1.5 weeks for the new device to arrive, during which time I'll be listening to music/podcasts by sticking my phone into the cup holder to amplify the sound.

I LOVE this car. But the spontaneous moonroof explosion and the death of the control center are not exactly confidence inspiring.
 

nay

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^^^^this is why I refuse to give up old iron.

How much we figure one of these consoles costs when it fails out of warranty? [shudders]
 

princo

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For any Subie haters out there - the control center (radio, map, etc) on my 2018 Outback just died for realz. There had been a few times when I started the car and the screen wouldn't load, but it always came back eventually. I had been told they couldn't do anything unless the screen was actively off at the time.

I LOVE this car. But the spontaneous moonroof explosion and the death of the control center are not exactly confidence inspiring.

I wonder how much that repair is going to cost when out of warranty. For a brief period of time, I had a Cadillac with the CUE touchscreen that stopped working (32k miles). I took it to the dealer to be replaced under warranty, and I asked how much that repair would be out of warranty and they said just short of $2k. See if you can dig that info after they repair yours.

My neighbor has a 2015 (or 16 not sure) Outback that a few months ago got the Christmas tree dashboard - all lights on, all systems shut off (ie traction control, eyesight, etc). They had to replace a module. Dealer said it would have been a $1,200 job and the he should considered the extended warranty, which he bought.
 
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Muleski

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We've had this conversation here before, a lot in our house. The car companies are not fools. There is, sadly, less and less justification for keeping many cars out of warranty. Still, some have recently been built well enough to last, I hope. But for the most part, it seems like they don't want them to last too long. Work vehicles might be the exception. Trucks.

One of our cars, which we still own because it's a "extra" car, and is worth not much, is a 2005 Subie Legacy GT wagon. I'm doing a couple of projects over the weekend. Replacing the trashed front leather seats with two new to me via Ebay, and doing some repairs that require my taking three of the four door panels off. I have already bought spare clips, as they all clip on, and the clips will explode. I was thinking of my older 1995.5 Audi S6, which I don't believe had a single clip in the car. The door panels screwed into place, as I recall. Just one little thing.

When we bought our most recent LandCruiser, I looked for a year for the right vehicle. I wanted a perfect one, and one of the very last built without the navigation system.

One of my neighbors just helped his son buy his first car. They were about to buy a BMW 750i. I suggested no for a couple of reasons, and had him speak to my Audi/BMW tech who soundly confirmed "NO". The car has something like 80 devices that my tech referred to as "computer modules." Incredibly costly and problematic in older cars these days.

Our son has a ten year old BMW 328xi wagon. Six speed. 150K+ miles. Solid as a rock, and pretty easy for him to work on. Build quality is great {it was built in Germany}. They also have a 2002 Tacoma. 265K miles, and just an incredible vehicle. Looks like vehicle three may be a leased diesel truck, which he'll keep if it turns out to be a good one.

Daughter has a Outback XT, that has been a great car for her, but is perhaps ready to sell this spring, as they are still in real demand where she lives. But the question of "what do I replace it with?" is a tough one. Lives in the High Rockies. She {and I} keep going around in circles.

Replacing cars and trucks these days is a different game, I'm afraid...........
 

Monique

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How much we figure one of these consoles costs when it fails out of warranty? [shudders]

I wonder how much that repair is going to cost when out of warranty.

He told me - I believe $1k for the device, and he said a 45 minute install. For what it's worth, I had a "regular" stereo (not even bluetooth!) in my old Outback XT. It went on the fritz, and was still something like $600 (don't recall if that included install).
 

pete

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He told me - I believe $1k for the device, and he said a 45 minute install. For what it's worth, I had a "regular" stereo (not even bluetooth!) in my old Outback XT. It went on the fritz, and was still something like $600 (don't recall if that included install).

yeah, a regular radio is a simple item that you or your local BBuy can install but once integrated into the Auto's navigation, climate and phone interface you run into issues where you may have to use an OEMs front end. I haven't followed the automotive market greatly but am pretty sure they're not open system front end displays. Today there may be hundreds of small modules simply to communicate and control items at the end of line. Window controllers, your tire pressure sensors, etc. Many not really pricey and likely last 20 yrs or more but some such as the engine controllers, transmission controllers, etc are not cheap and limited from the OEM.

Now with smart systems for safety such as adaptive cruise control, lane control, etc .. one just adds a lot of hardware and proprietary software. once self driving hits ... I suspect one will really question from whom to buy for reliability and how the OEM supports software updates. I get a kick out of Ford asking if I want to order a Map update for only $149 when my kids Mazda has lifetime updates. Hers is very user friendly and I suspect lifetime updates as I am nearly positive it's Garmin based. Thinking the Garmin works so much nicer, I picked up a rebuilt Garmin for $75 bucks direct with lifetime updates, use it if in a area needing map updates .. works great .. but I digress.

Of course, one possible outcome is by the time self driving cars become realized, one might just find that you can group lease a car that when needed, comes to you and you "time share" the vehicle.

For me, I guess I'm pretty happy I can still change my own brakes ...


oh, I feel better now venting!
 

nay

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He told me - I believe $1k for the device, and he said a 45 minute install. For what it's worth, I had a "regular" stereo (not even bluetooth!) in my old Outback XT. It went on the fritz, and was still something like $600 (don't recall if that included install).

Sure - the factory stereo will still be a dealer price part and job, but you had the superior $120 aftermarket option that is gone now.

Tesla is a good place to look, the most valuable car company in the world (maybe not right now with Elon’s antics?) because it was being valued as a tech company and not a car company. The old car companies are creating tech divisions to try and increase their values, but it all leads to a common theme:

The “console” is an adaptive step on the road to cars being technology devices rather than what we have considered an “automobile”, and the lifecycle is already shifting toward tech device and away from durable mechanical transportation.

I’m not arguing that there is anything natively wrong with this other than living in a passive world. Car companies look at driving time as a driving experience. Tech companies look at driving time as time away from their products, and the real goal of self driving isn’t passive safety or efficiency so much as it is to keep you in front of the screen.

And we know that the technology lifecycle of screens is far less than engines and other mechanical devices. So what is a car when it’s primary function becomes the console and how do we address lifecycle costs when you can’t reasonably maintain it yourself? That’s different than “How much does the console cost?”, but probably not in 10 years.

I’ll still be posting pics of my Cruiser, at least until I am old enough or consistently drunk enough to want a car that isn’t a car.
 

pete

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Sure - the factory stereo will still be a dealer price part and job, but you had the superior $120 aftermarket option that is gone now.

Tesla is a good place to look, the most valuable car company in the world (maybe not right now with Elon’s antics?) because it was being valued as a tech company and not a car company. The old car companies are creating tech divisions to try and increase their values, but it all leads to a common theme:

The “console” is an adaptive step on the road to cars being technology devices rather than what we have considered an “automobile”, and the lifecycle is already shifting toward tech device and away from durable mechanical transportation.

I’m not arguing that there is anything natively wrong with this other than living in a passive world. Car companies look at driving time as a driving experience. Tech companies look at driving time as time away from their products, and the real goal of self driving isn’t passive safety or efficiency so much as it is to keep you in front of the screen.

And we know that the technology lifecycle of screens is far less than engines and other mechanical devices. So what is a car when it’s primary function becomes the console and how do we address lifecycle costs when you can’t reasonably maintain it yourself? That’s different than “How much does the console cost?”, but probably not in 10 years.

I’ll still be posting pics of my Cruiser, at least until I am old enough or consistently drunk enough to want a car that isn’t a car.


Greatly agree but i'd note that the the issues observed with auto's today are a bit two fold. I'd claim the electronic systems are likely equally reliable on the whole as are the mechanics, it's simply the number of electronics and what we expect contradict one another. I'll speculate that the individual Mean Time Between Failure (MTFB) are not horribly bad for electronics other than if you have 100 of them, it's significantly dragged down.

I've got some 5000 hrs on my motor/vehicle and suspect with luck to expect another 5000hrs, but this doesn't include wear out items such as brakes, coolant, tires, shocks, etc. The electronics likely easily have 10Khrs or more MTBF but as you noted, consumers are leaning towards traveling entertainment which with it adds multiple systems. Sometimes I'm all for this as I can attest that when me and my spouse picked up smart phones for our two eldest, the 14hr trip to Steamboat had few complaints .. just lots of giggling as they likely were making fun of the adults ... this and watching movies made the trip to them seem not bad at all.

However given my primary need for my truck is to and fro work and then hauling home improvement items ..agree that if we simply lived with basics on vehicles, they overall would be less costly and last longer. Of course this doesn't get into the added fuel efficiency ... still mixed on this as I had an old GM 6 cyl minivan that fully loaded, 4 kids, full luggage and packed to brim averaged 27mpg on highway. Today I doubt a mini with the same HP/Torque would get that .. maybe a 4cyl turbo but then given what we hauled load wise .. maybe not ...

But since most vehicles today have 20% more HP .. ... another contention point.
 

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