Glad I didn't read that before buying the Audi A4 Avant I had for 170,000 miles. May I be as lucky with my Alltrack.
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Suggestions for replacing our new Subaru Outback with something not so fragile/frustrating
- Thread starter surfandski
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Well, based on the mileage for the A4 (all types) you were somewhere between 1-2 standard deviations on the good side of the bell curve. I usually consider myself fortunate when that happens. So using the Golf as a base, the good news is that you will have slightly better odds to make it that far.
Actually, I won't. Because I had that car 18 years, and if I'm still driving at 84, look out.
I think this data may be a little skewed; it comes from wholesale auction cars only. The good cars don't end up there.
Here's a less scientific way I like to gauge the reliability of older vehicles.
Search for a specific model nationwide on cars.com and sort by mileage descending. That gives an idea how long vehicles are sticking around and how much value they retain in their old age.
Here's the A4 Avants:
https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searc...579&trId=22610&trId=22752&trId=22767&zc=32891
Here's the similar era Lexus LX 470 (Land Cruiser):
https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searc...ue&sort=miles-highest&stkTypId=28881&zc=32891
There are a bunch LX 470's for sale with 250-330K miles, selling for pretty good money. Not many A4 Avants.
It's rough, as you have to account for the total number for sale and guess at the total number of vehicles sold when new. But I think it gives you an idea and seems fairly consistent with the dashboard-light.com website.
Search for a specific model nationwide on cars.com and sort by mileage descending. That gives an idea how long vehicles are sticking around and how much value they retain in their old age.
Here's the A4 Avants:
https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searc...579&trId=22610&trId=22752&trId=22767&zc=32891
Here's the similar era Lexus LX 470 (Land Cruiser):
https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searc...ue&sort=miles-highest&stkTypId=28881&zc=32891
There are a bunch LX 470's for sale with 250-330K miles, selling for pretty good money. Not many A4 Avants.
It's rough, as you have to account for the total number for sale and guess at the total number of vehicles sold when new. But I think it gives you an idea and seems fairly consistent with the dashboard-light.com website.
Without having a guess as to the number sold, that's pretty useless. (I guess when I gave my neighbor the car for his kid, it was a nice tip. And totally missed being on this list.)
I don't think it's useless. Take a look at the total number of a model currently for sale nationwide. Then take a look at the distribution of the milage of the vehicles for sale. When there are few vehicles with high mileage, say above 200,000, it says a lot.
@surfandski on you next trip to the Toyota dealer, crawl under the Highlander and the 4runner. Take a look at the suspension components. Think about which you would rather hit road damage with on I-70 going 75 mph. Remember how rough the snow packed roads can be. Consider how much it will cost to fix a suspension. It's in that context I suggest MPG isn't that important.
I looked under our MDX and Tundra this morning. It's remarkable how much thicker and stronger the suspension components are on the Tundra.
They both have about 140K miles. The MDX suspension feels like it's toast and the Tundra drives like new. The Tundra has a considerable percentage of miles on I-70 ski trips, as it's been a second vehicle primarily for ski duty. It gets crappy mileage and always has studded snows in the winter, so I've avoided driving it unless the conditions warrant, so it's taken a beating. The MDX has only seen ski duty in the last 5 seasons since we've been hauling our kiddos up, less than 10 trips a year.
I don't think a car or crossover SUV suspension is built to take hundreds or thousands of miles of driving on roads like these.
I looked under our MDX and Tundra this morning. It's remarkable how much thicker and stronger the suspension components are on the Tundra.
They both have about 140K miles. The MDX suspension feels like it's toast and the Tundra drives like new. The Tundra has a considerable percentage of miles on I-70 ski trips, as it's been a second vehicle primarily for ski duty. It gets crappy mileage and always has studded snows in the winter, so I've avoided driving it unless the conditions warrant, so it's taken a beating. The MDX has only seen ski duty in the last 5 seasons since we've been hauling our kiddos up, less than 10 trips a year.
I don't think a car or crossover SUV suspension is built to take hundreds or thousands of miles of driving on roads like these.
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I don't think a car or crossover SUV suspension is built to take hundreds or thousands of miles of driving on roads like these.
What's so bad about that first one?
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Well, I need to get over to the right lane for the Copper exit. It's gonna be a bumpy ride switching lanes.
If continuing to Vail, as soon as you climb a couple of hundred vertical feet up Vail Pass it's going to be packed snow covering the entire road. It can be as rough as a dirt road for the next 15 or so miles, at probably 50-65 mph. Car suspensions are not built for that. Crossover SUV's have car suspensions.
Some vehicles are simply built for a lot more heavy duty use, and a lot longer service life. In some cases, to withstand some seriously rough conditions. I am partial to the Toyota branded Landcruiser, and to the 1998-2007 model years. The Lexus 470 is essentially identical, but with more creature comforts, and upscale appeal for the US market, the only market in which it's sold. It has tremendous paint, in nice metallic colors, softer, super high grade leather. More wood. More high grade stereo, and the air adjustable suspension.
We have a family friend who is a Toyota distributor, and owns a few stores. Back in the early 90's, we had just had our second Suburban literally fall apart at about 75K miles. We had bought it new, as we had the previous one. Both Chevy branded. Our friend said, "Just buy a Landcruiser, OK?" And he explained that there was no need to buy a new one, as I couldn't run it through a business, etc. That's when I began my education as to the genesis of the vehicle. It was build as high end exploration, or actually diplomatic vehicle.....with a service life of at least 500K. When Toyota determined that it had a lot of rugged appeal, they began to evolve the vehicle, and by 1998, it was pretty nice and plush in a rugged sort of way. They sold a lot of the Toyota branded vehicles, and began to sell and lease a huge number of Lexus 470's. Most of which have never been off road, many never in the snow.
That's a vehicle though that is build to handle whatever you can throw at it. For a long, long life. The engine has a lot of forged parts. Everything is built to be replaced as needed. The quality of everything is apparent. They were built in ONE factory in Japan, which was apparently whey all Toyota employees wanted to work. So, yes, they were "worth" the steep price. We have owned four. All bought used, and with anywhere from 40K to 100K on the clock. We sold our 80 to buy our first 100. We drove the 100 to 250K miles, and it ran like a stopwatch. We sold it because we got a line on an other mint, barely used, 2003. We put another 230K on that one, to about 260K. Then repeated, and bought another 2003.....because we tracked down a real unicorn in terms of color, and options.....no navigation, for example. We have owned that for six years, it has 140K on it, and it is amazing how many people think it is a new vehicle.
I've become really familiar with these vehicles, and do a lot of my own work, because I enjoy it. I make sure to keep on top of the fluids, the filters and belts. I have done other preventative work, like replacing all of the cooling hoses. That's about to happen on our current one. I drain and fill the alleged lifetime AT fluid. When I replace brake pads, I made sure to lube the guide pins in the calipers. We lube the drive shaft. I have an indie mechanic who knows the vehicles, too.
Bottom line is that these have proven to be incredible reliable, bullet proof vehicles in ANY kind of driving. I run Hakka snows in the winter on them. Goes anywhere, on any surface. The cost of operation and ownership is probably less than almost every car that we've owned.....and I think we have owned 50+ during our adult years. Our son has a Tacoma, 2002, with 250K+ miles on it. It looks and drives perfectly. He takes care of it, but doesn't baby it. He's modified the suspension, the frame, etc. He plans to own it for A LONG time. The material and build quality of that generation Tacoma is tremendous.
I agree 100% that not all Toyota products are the same....at all. A Sequoia is a neat vehicle, and it can also be a real value used. It's no Land Cruiser. I'm pretty familiar with them. Similarly a Highlander is not a 4Runner, and a new 4Runner is no "truck." We have a runner search going on in our family right now, and a new recent one is off the table.
Some vehicles just last longer, an are built for a different purpose. And some are just better built on any given day. We had an Audi S6 Avant, 1995.5, and we kept it for a LONG time. Last I knew, it was still a reliable daily driver, with 400K on it. Engine has never been rebuilt. Same turbo that we had on it 150K ago, original clutch.....
Sometimes you also just get lucky. I do agree that using a vehicle for what it was intended is also part of the picture.......
I really don't know how to advise the OP........
We have a family friend who is a Toyota distributor, and owns a few stores. Back in the early 90's, we had just had our second Suburban literally fall apart at about 75K miles. We had bought it new, as we had the previous one. Both Chevy branded. Our friend said, "Just buy a Landcruiser, OK?" And he explained that there was no need to buy a new one, as I couldn't run it through a business, etc. That's when I began my education as to the genesis of the vehicle. It was build as high end exploration, or actually diplomatic vehicle.....with a service life of at least 500K. When Toyota determined that it had a lot of rugged appeal, they began to evolve the vehicle, and by 1998, it was pretty nice and plush in a rugged sort of way. They sold a lot of the Toyota branded vehicles, and began to sell and lease a huge number of Lexus 470's. Most of which have never been off road, many never in the snow.
That's a vehicle though that is build to handle whatever you can throw at it. For a long, long life. The engine has a lot of forged parts. Everything is built to be replaced as needed. The quality of everything is apparent. They were built in ONE factory in Japan, which was apparently whey all Toyota employees wanted to work. So, yes, they were "worth" the steep price. We have owned four. All bought used, and with anywhere from 40K to 100K on the clock. We sold our 80 to buy our first 100. We drove the 100 to 250K miles, and it ran like a stopwatch. We sold it because we got a line on an other mint, barely used, 2003. We put another 230K on that one, to about 260K. Then repeated, and bought another 2003.....because we tracked down a real unicorn in terms of color, and options.....no navigation, for example. We have owned that for six years, it has 140K on it, and it is amazing how many people think it is a new vehicle.
I've become really familiar with these vehicles, and do a lot of my own work, because I enjoy it. I make sure to keep on top of the fluids, the filters and belts. I have done other preventative work, like replacing all of the cooling hoses. That's about to happen on our current one. I drain and fill the alleged lifetime AT fluid. When I replace brake pads, I made sure to lube the guide pins in the calipers. We lube the drive shaft. I have an indie mechanic who knows the vehicles, too.
Bottom line is that these have proven to be incredible reliable, bullet proof vehicles in ANY kind of driving. I run Hakka snows in the winter on them. Goes anywhere, on any surface. The cost of operation and ownership is probably less than almost every car that we've owned.....and I think we have owned 50+ during our adult years. Our son has a Tacoma, 2002, with 250K+ miles on it. It looks and drives perfectly. He takes care of it, but doesn't baby it. He's modified the suspension, the frame, etc. He plans to own it for A LONG time. The material and build quality of that generation Tacoma is tremendous.
I agree 100% that not all Toyota products are the same....at all. A Sequoia is a neat vehicle, and it can also be a real value used. It's no Land Cruiser. I'm pretty familiar with them. Similarly a Highlander is not a 4Runner, and a new 4Runner is no "truck." We have a runner search going on in our family right now, and a new recent one is off the table.
Some vehicles just last longer, an are built for a different purpose. And some are just better built on any given day. We had an Audi S6 Avant, 1995.5, and we kept it for a LONG time. Last I knew, it was still a reliable daily driver, with 400K on it. Engine has never been rebuilt. Same turbo that we had on it 150K ago, original clutch.....
Sometimes you also just get lucky. I do agree that using a vehicle for what it was intended is also part of the picture.......
I really don't know how to advise the OP........
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Thread Starter
TS
I appreciate your and Tball's recommendation of that model Lexus! I absolutely see the value in one of those in the right location and if I still lived in the Sierras or Rockies I could absolutely see owning a Land Cruiser, 4Runner, Sequoia, Lexus 470, etc. I could see modifying it enough to hit CO trails and Moab regularly plus having a beast to get me thru the biggest storms. Where I live, I'm so not in that place right now. If I was to prioritize our needs for the next few years, it's a somewhat fuel efficient suv/crossover or even a straight up sedan that will never leave the pavement and will get tons of miles racked on it driving back and forth between our beach house and NC mountain house. Even with all of the kayaking and MTBing I do, it's always paved parking areas so my vehicles rarely ever touch dirt. 98% of those miles will be us driving very well maintained roads and usually with 600-700 lbs of occupants and cargo max, and really, most of the times more like 500 lbs. It won't be a work truck or haul a trailer. I do hear what you are saying when you suggest to look under a 4Runner and Highlander and compare the suspension components as I'm sure they are substantially more beefy. I'm sure if I compared the suspension of a Tacoma with a F350 it would also be a night and day difference but both are capable so it really comes down to what is the best tool for the job. There is a part of me that at times wonders if we wouldn't be better off just getting a nice Lexus GS Sedan for all of our smooth road, highway driving we do and then using our older RX350 for the Colorado road trip. Even after using that as a full on work truck (you don't even want to know how many boxes of tile that thing has hauled without issue) it's proven to be far more capable under load than our Outback.
Over the past few days we've looked at several more of the midsized crossover/Suvs as they really seem to be a perfect fit for our needs in spite of our experience with the Outback. If you look at all of them in that class, the Outback has the lowest payload of any of them. We looked at the Ford Flex and Kia Sorento and they only had 1,100ish lbs and most of the other are in the 1,100-1,300 range with the Highlander actually having one of the highest payloads. The one we are looking at trading in our Outback for has a 1525 lb payload and I just didn't see anything in this class that seemed to check all of the boxes for our needs like this one does. I realize I'm putting a lot of faith in numbers here but that's because I didn't pay any attention to the numbers when I bought the Outback as I didn't think it would be an issue. Like a fool I recalled beating the snot out of my high school buddies mom's Subarus in the 90's driving up to our party spots all over the trails around S. Tahoe and then more recently buying into all of the commercials and marketing literature, so I just figured if my Lexus was capable, certainly a Subaru would be much more so. I mean, look at their Rally pedigree. Isn't all Subaru engineering Rally inspired (damn, I was an idiot!)? Not wanting to make that mistake, I'm trying to at least process a little data and make an educated guess as to what will make a good sedanesque suv (which is what we really need first and foremost) and then what has a chance of being able to handle maybe 100-200 lbs more than what caused our Subaru suspension to pancake on our ski trips. Given what I've researched, I'm feeling really good about the Highlander being the perfect fit for us. BTW- a number of Highlander owners on the Toyota forums switched from Outbacks to the Highlander with similar issues/frustrations/hatred with their Subarus and said that the HL is far more capable. Some of them are based in Denver and drive up I70 regularly and some of them may even be on this forum so I'm fairly confident that this will be a more substantial vehicle (maybe not in its snow prowess as Subarus are legit). I will definitely pay more attention when we are packing for our trip but I have no doubt we will be far below the max payload of the Highlander for the drive out to Colorado. One thing's for sure though, if we ever move back out west, I'll be all for getting a more rugged 4x4!
Over the past few days we've looked at several more of the midsized crossover/Suvs as they really seem to be a perfect fit for our needs in spite of our experience with the Outback. If you look at all of them in that class, the Outback has the lowest payload of any of them. We looked at the Ford Flex and Kia Sorento and they only had 1,100ish lbs and most of the other are in the 1,100-1,300 range with the Highlander actually having one of the highest payloads. The one we are looking at trading in our Outback for has a 1525 lb payload and I just didn't see anything in this class that seemed to check all of the boxes for our needs like this one does. I realize I'm putting a lot of faith in numbers here but that's because I didn't pay any attention to the numbers when I bought the Outback as I didn't think it would be an issue. Like a fool I recalled beating the snot out of my high school buddies mom's Subarus in the 90's driving up to our party spots all over the trails around S. Tahoe and then more recently buying into all of the commercials and marketing literature, so I just figured if my Lexus was capable, certainly a Subaru would be much more so. I mean, look at their Rally pedigree. Isn't all Subaru engineering Rally inspired (damn, I was an idiot!)? Not wanting to make that mistake, I'm trying to at least process a little data and make an educated guess as to what will make a good sedanesque suv (which is what we really need first and foremost) and then what has a chance of being able to handle maybe 100-200 lbs more than what caused our Subaru suspension to pancake on our ski trips. Given what I've researched, I'm feeling really good about the Highlander being the perfect fit for us. BTW- a number of Highlander owners on the Toyota forums switched from Outbacks to the Highlander with similar issues/frustrations/hatred with their Subarus and said that the HL is far more capable. Some of them are based in Denver and drive up I70 regularly and some of them may even be on this forum so I'm fairly confident that this will be a more substantial vehicle (maybe not in its snow prowess as Subarus are legit). I will definitely pay more attention when we are packing for our trip but I have no doubt we will be far below the max payload of the Highlander for the drive out to Colorado. One thing's for sure though, if we ever move back out west, I'll be all for getting a more rugged 4x4!
Thread Starter
TS
This post sparked a memory from years ago when I really could have used lane departure and other modern technology. I had been living in Santiago, Chile for a few years as a ski/surf bum and my GF and I went on a 3 month road trip thru Patagonia, Argentina and Brazil. My GF flew back from Iguazu Falls and I drove back alone and drove 48 hours drive time with only stopping for one 4 hour nap (and a 2 hour detour to return to where I had the best steak I've ever had in my life in Rosario, Argentina). I slept 4 hours in a 64 hour window and if anyone has ever driven highway 5 between La Serena and Copiapo, you know it's like the most remote road in Utah times 10. At about 4 in the morning after not having seen a single vehicle for hours, I snap to, or wake up, or whatever, realizing I'm being passed by a car and I'm only going about 20 mph down the center line of a 2 lane highway. That woke me up and was scary as hell but I sure could have used any of today's technology to make it back to my GF's family vineyard as no quantity of slapping myself, doing pushups and jumping jacks on the side of the road or driving with my head out the window in cold air, could keep me alert when I was that exhausted. The things we do when we are 20 and invincible! BTW- gas was $4 a gallon down in Argentina so no chance of doing that trip in one of these giant SUVs.
It's only ok to fall asleep at the wheel, as long as you keep your eyes open, dream that your driving, and drive as well in your dreams as you do in real life, e.g. don't speed too much, pass safely, and stay on your side of the yellow line when traffic is on-coming, etc. Been there; done that (twice) - trying real hard never to do it again.
While still in college, I nodded off at the wheel and sideswiped another car. It spun my car 180*. I was convinced, for a brief but unforgettable moment, that I had killed another human being.
I don't fuck around with sleep anymore. Although - I wanted to get off that highway and go to sleep, desperately. There were no exits between when I realized how tired I was, and when this happened.
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Flame suit on, getting ready to be bombarded by Loyal Clan Subaru, but there is no comparison between the Outback and Highlander.
I've spent a lot of time in both, and there just isn't much similarity. Two different levels of vehicles.
Of course, you'll probably spend more for the Highlander, and you WILL use more fuel, if either of those are deal breakers.
I've had a 2003 Highlander and a 2013 Outback. They are somewhat different vehicles. The Highlander was probably the finest vehicle I've owned..superbly built and engineered. The Outback is not a bad car..just not as good as a Highlander in many ways. The Outback was a lot cheaper having said that.
Let me add one other consideration, and I DO NOT know how this will play out with the current generation of Outbacks. The value retained, in terms of price, for the generation two {2000-2004} and generation 3 {2005-2009}, for a well maintained and really clean car is borderline insanely high. My daughter is about to sell a 2008 Outback XT, and it's a good one with 110K miles. I think she may sell it for $3K less than she paid for it five years ago, My son's GF is selling a 2006 3.0R, which is mechanically sound, but cosmetically tired at 225K miles. It will sell for about twice what would make sense. Would never make any of us buy another Subie Outback, but that piece has been very good. Of course when you factor it what has been a pretty high maintenance cost, it's a bit less dramatic. Older Outbacks sure sell as basic transportation on ski country. However, IME, not the reliable cheap to maintain appliance that they were. May depend on the model, quite a bit. I have a few friends who have WRX's, and those seem to have been pretty reliable....Resale....insanely high. What is effectively going to be a near swap with that 2008 XT is going to blow me away.
Yeah, you know how well my identical Outback sold. And fast, so I didn't have to dick around for a while with leads.