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ScottB

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Not quite sure where you are getting your numbers. Mine are from direct measurements when mounted. Note that they differ a bit from the "official" published numbers.

PRD GW: 3.5mm delta
Attack: 3.0mm delta

There is no PRD to my knowledge that has a flat delta. So I am wondering about your measurement method. Unless maybe you actually have GripWalk boots and are using the binding in GW mode?

Just to add some more info to this thread, I put my Tyrolia/Fischer bindings back on my powerrail and took some measurements. These bindings are the Fischer branded version of the PRD's. They might be slightly different (I suspect the brake and toe AFD are new designs) than past PRD's. Anyway, I got:

Heel: boot sole to top of ski: 35.0 mm
Toe: boot sole to top of ski: 34.3 mm

essentially zero delta. Here are some pic's of my measurements. They are accurate as you can see.

IMG_20190529_181248132.jpg
IMG_20190529_181148599.jpg
IMG_20190529_181205811.jpg
 

ski otter 2

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Your method(s) would work for me too, as long as I stayed consistent from setup to setup, and realized other folks might use a slightly different set of selections to get their own measurements - which thus might be slightly different, and yet consistent for them from setup to setup also.

To me these photos are good examples of some of the difficulties in measuring these, and how much subjective judgement or selection actually enters in. In the photos, the bottom of both the toe and heel/top of binding look sloped, not flat, relative to the plane of the ski. With the toe, I'd have probably chosen the center of the sliding plate the boot rests on, rather than the spot you chose. At any rate, in such cases, I mostly would have to pick a point that seems to be close to the center of the weight at the toe or heel (or use some other consistent criteria), as you seem to have done. (If that is not the case here, then it certainly is with many bindings I've measured: one has to use one's judgement about where to place the calipers/rule.)

Also, the actual boot/binding contact points are possibly hidden, in the crevice, in the dark - in the photos (or in real life), one simply can't see in there to tell, often: hard to tell where the low contact boot/binding point actually is in there, and probably often not possible to actually reach it with calipers, underneath the boot, should it be at a different depth/height than the outside, more visible and accessible part of the boot and binding. So you do the best you can: maybe different from brand or other people's measurements. (With our group of four to six, we'd usually get three or four slightly different results, which we had to learn to compare and sort out for ourselves.)

Thus the one doing the measuring can establish a consistent methodology for themselves for measuring these deltas, to at least get a set of consistent measurements to compare to actual skiing experience. That way, one can learn from experience one's preferred delta/"ramp angles" for that setup and others, by lots of experience at how the consistently measured deltas feel on snow.

(It's been my experience that I myself like different deltas for different ski/binding setups, with lots of variables involved: ski stiffness laterally and lengthwise, ski shape and construction, length, width, materials used, binding characteristics, including both delta and height, binding "give" patterns, terrain, conditions, etc. Again, lots of variables: the only way for me to sort it out is to find combinations I like, by trying them.)
 

ski otter 2

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P.S. The simplest, most universal example of different deltas being preferred for different setups is perhaps the different deltas racers choose for slalom and for gs. The same skier is using a different delta for each setup, consistently.
 

ScottB

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ski otter 2,

I pretty much agree with everything you are saying.

I would make a couple of points.

1. My heel of the boot is pretty flat, so not an issue of where to measure. My toe does curve up to the right of my measuremet. To the left it is flat, so I measured on the begining of the flat section. I agree that different people will choose different spots, kind of human nature.

2. If you think about what you are trying to do, you want to measure an angle (by a two point measurement) or a delta. If I stand on a flat surface in the boot that will be zero delta for the boot. Whatever the contact points of the boot to the flat surface are, that is where you should measure when in the binding. I am assuming the top of the ski is flat, and the ski is the same thickness at those points. That will will give you a delta measurement for toe high or heel high. This is very hard to do with my AT boots, since there is a lot of rocker in the toe. My race boots have flat bottoms, except for near the toe which curves up. I avoided that area of the toe, since it would give an incorrect measurement compared to zero delta. I know I like zero delta, so this binding is very close to that. I am good with 3 mm or less of "toe low". If more than that I need to shim the toe binding up.

I don't get that fussy about these numbers, just need a binding to be in the ball park of flat.
 

ski otter 2

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Hi, ScottB. Nice. A practical method. As you say, no need to get fussy. :)

For myself, I just want to have a way of getting to setups that work for me & friends, that I can still communicate to others, and they to me.

At first, it was a bit of a shock when a roomful of tech guys in the business for years and decades, mostly got different delta measurements on a bunch of binding setups, with the bindings and the measuring tools right in front of us! After comparing notes on methods, it got better, but not as much as we might have liked. (For myself, for example, I found I was most accurate, surprisingly, using a small, fine print precision metal ruler (used in guitar-making work), rather than any of the nearly half a dozen expensive to cheap calipers on hand: it was easier to situate, easier on my eyes, and for me more accurate and consistent quickly - and thus practical, in a not too fussy way.)
 

pykie87

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I am 6'.0", 220lb expert level skier and former instructor.
What size Stockli Laser AX for me?
175 or 182?
I am concerned the 175 will be too small given my size?
My current every day driver are the Volkl Kendo 177
Ski style is a mix of GS and S turns
Ski mostly East early morning frozen groomers with 3-4 trips West each year on the IKON Pass
I welcome all input.

Thank you,

Mike

I'm 6"5 and 215 and I tried every size known to man and each stockli ski range over Christmas.

I bought the 175 AX's, they were absolutely awesome through all conditions. I consider myself expert and like to ski at high speed. I had no issues with washout, I found them just so much more responsive through moguls etc than the 182s.
 

Choucas

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While we're on the topic of bindings and Laser AX's, please give me your best pick for a binding for that ski. Eastern US skiing & piste skiing in Europe. Not Marker unless they have a human version (13 din max) of their new race binding. Salomon and Tyrolia preferred. Don't want a plate under the binding. 6', 180lbs. Lots of miles. Ski fast but not stupid fast. 40 days a year piste skiing.
 

Jim McDonald

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Bought mine with the Salomon MX13 binding that Stockli recommends; very happy with it (and of course the color matches perfectly, which makes the ski 10% faster!)
 

Newc

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Hey guys - just joined the forum after a long time lurking. Looking at the Stöckli AR or AX - something to pair with my more playful, POW skis. This is my first sub-95 ski in a while...

My daily driver is currently a Fischer 102 FR in 184 and looking for advice on sizing. I’m 5’10.5”, about 175-185 lbs - think I should stick with the 175s or go up to the 182s? I’m an advanced to expert skier, would want these for groomers and icy conditions.

Thanks!
 

Uncle-A

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Hey guys - just joined the forum after a long time lurking. Looking at the Stöckli AR or AX - something to pair with my more playful, POW skis. This is my first sub-95 ski in a while...

My daily driver is currently a Fischer 102 FR in 184 and looking for advice on sizing. I’m 5’10.5”, about 175-185 lbs - think I should stick with the 175s or go up to the 182s? I’m an advanced to expert skier, would want these for groomers and icy conditions.

Thanks!
You are posting in the correct thread at your size and weight the 175 AX would be a good choice for the hard pack and ice conditions you talk about.
 

Newc

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Thanks Uncle A! Appreciate the quick response. I hate being somewhat between sizes :/.
 

ski otter 2

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Speaking just of the AXes, the two lengths 175 and 183 handle differently, as if two different skis. (I'm on the lighter side, 150/5'10".)

If I could, I'd own both skis, but I own the (18/19) 183 and love it (though I've demoed the 19/20 version of the 175 AX, and love it too). On steeps, I'd prefer the 175. In bumps and bigger bumps, again, the 175. For fast, precise and close to slalom quickness from edge to edge, the 175. But for bigger, faster turns, so smooth, the 183. (For ice, either one.)

The 183 feels a bit heavier, and more damp. Like a more gs type ski. It will ski quickly edge to edge, but not like the 175. For most people, the 175 would probably be best, I have to admit. Easier, and more versatile also. But the 183 is so fast, when that's wanted, and smooooth.

P.S. With these two skis, skier weight, within limits, doesn't seem to make much difference on which is best.
 

Newc

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Speaking just of the AXes, the two lengths 175 and 183 handle differently, as if two different skis. (I'm on the lighter side, 150/5'10".)

If I could, I'd own both skis, but I own the (18/19) 183 and love it (though I've demoed the 19/20 version of the 175 AX, and love it too). On steeps, I'd prefer the 175. In bumps and bigger bumps, again, the 175. For fast, precise and close to slalom quickness from edge to edge, the 175. But for bigger, faster turns, so smooth, the 183. (For ice, either one.)

The 183 feels a bit heavier, and more damp. Like a more gs type ski. It will ski quickly edge to edge, but not like the 175. For most people, the 175 would probably be best, I have to admit. Easier, and more versatile also. But the 183 is so fast, when that's wanted, and smooooth.

P.S. With these two skis, skier weight, within limits, doesn't seem to make much difference on which is best.

Also, very instructive!

I have options for larger turns, like my Rangers and other POW skis, but don’t really have anything for bumps, or icy steeps. Seems like the 175 makes more sense for me!

Appreciate everyone’s help on this, gave me some assurance!
 

mdf

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I also strongly recommend the 175 at your size. You are my height and a little lighter. I've skied all 3 lengths (and briefly owned the 183 -- if it was the 175 I would have kept them). For context, my other skis (except slaloms) are all in the high 180's.
 

Newc

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mdf - also, very helpful! I feel like I’m typically a ‘tweener and usually err on the larger side. But this seems more suitable to a smaller ski.
 

Jim McDonald

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Echo @mdf (as I briefly owned the 183 before he briefly owned them :roflmao:) and now also am quite happy with my 175s.
 

James

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I skied ^^ those guys’ 183. Still pains me thinking about it on the steeps. If you do go for it, go at least +2cm on the mount. Prob 3.
But the 175 is the size in that ski. Esp if you want to sell it later.
 

Newc

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Ha, this is all very helpful - and truly, exactly what I was hoping to hear. A couple more questions (since y'all have been so helpful so far):

Almost exclusively, I will be using this for Colorado / Utah skiing - I'm anticipating that this will not change the calculus, as I intend to use it to rip groomers at Deer Valley, Beaver Creek, and the like (somehow, when it is my wife's turn to select a location, it is always Deer Valley or Beaver Creek...). I don't really plan on traveling with it to J Hole or CB this year (I may only take it to Telluride).

Further, do you think that I give consideration to the new Laser AR, as opposed to the AX? I'm intrigued by it, but there is very little information on it so far. I may sit on my decision until the season kicks up and I hear some added input. (As an aside, I have a (possibly bad) tendency to seek versatility from any product, and I'm thinking I should reign it in on this purchase).

Finally, to throw everyone for a loop, should I instead be looking at the Kastle MX 84? (I grew up skiing Stockli, skis so I have a soft spot for them).

To the extent that my quiver is exclusively 100+, I kind of have a lot of wiggle room in my decision. If I had it my way, I'd exclusively ski trees, back bowls, etc. - but on trips with my wife, certain friends, etc., I will have dedicated groomer days - thus my interest.

Also, just for the record, my current quiver consists of the following: Wildcat 117 (POW ski); Woodsman 108; and Fischer Range 102.
 

Philpug

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I agree with all the above, as @ski otter 2 said, the 175 and 183 are two different skis, and in your case, the 175 is the right ski and the 183 is the wrong ski..for what you are looking for the ski to do. You will be surprised how much you ski the AX compared to the other skis...you will be looking for bluebird groomer days to take them out and I will add, they will make you a better skier.
 

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