Steering into the squirm

[cantunamunch]

Tire-bad or tire-neutral?

Surface: 3/4" crush rock and clayey mud.

 

[cantunamunch]

For those who don't have the geometry clear in their head, it's the exact opposite/ counterpart of what Jan Heine discusses here:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/08/13/myth-13-leaning-without-countersteering/

Jan is trying to tilt the bike into the turn, so he steers out of the turn. I am trying to right the bike from slipping wheels-out and so I am steering *more* into the turn.

 

[François Pugh]

If you steer into the turn past the traction limit, you only lose more grip. Best to look for something around 15% slippage, measured by SOP (seat of the pants) method.

 

[François Pugh]

You may enjoy this article. http://www.soundrider.com/archive/safety-skills/nobsbike.aspx

 

[cantunamunch]

If you steer into the turn past the traction limit, you only lose more grip. .

I only start doing it after the tire has already squirmed - the inside sidewall is waaaaay buckled - remember we're talking super low pressures here.

The OP question can therefore be rephrased: Am I more likely to burp or pinch if I keep doing it?

 

[François Pugh]

My advise would be to ease up and ride out the slide for a bit, but I'm no official reference.

 

[scott43]

You're not going to pinch flat on gravel I wouldn't think..more likely to roll the tire or slide it around the rim. Almost every pinch flat I've ever seen involved a curb, rock or root..immovable object. Not gravel.. And I've probably changed 500 pinch flats in my life...sad as that is..

 

[Ron]

im thinking mtn bike drift into corners. Get your balance and feel for speed/direction before corrective steering. easy on the brakes (both)

 

[Rod9301]

For those who don't have the geometry clear in their head, it's the exact opposite/ counterpart of what Jan Heine discusses here:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/08/13/myth-13-leaning-without-countersteering/

Jan is trying to tilt the bike into the turn, so he steers out of the turn. I am trying to right the bike from slipping wheels-out and so I am steering *more* into the turn.

This article is heavily influenced by road biking.

No Enduro or downhill racer starts by counter steering.
Instead, move your hips to the outside .a lot, which will leave the bike and still keep your weight over the contact patch of the tire for stability in case you slip.

Also, been the outside elbow to lean the bike more And To keep the upper body over the tire contact patch, again to be able to prevent a fall.

 

[cantunamunch]

im thinking mtn bike drift into corners. Get your balance and feel for speed/direction before corrective steering. easy on the brakes (both)

Ain't no drift happening at that specific point - the tire tread is stuck on the trail and the rim is going outwards.

One solution (I suppose) is to use a slippier tire tread. Not sure I like that solution tho. And going higher pressure takes me back to that ugly side-to-side steering resonance problem.

 

[Ron]

My misunderstanding. Sorry. I thought you were describing a wheel breaking loose

 

[cantunamunch]

My misunderstanding. Sorry. I thought you were describing a wheel breaking loose

No worries - I have yet to see a discussion anywhere of what tools one has to put the rim back on top of the tread while riding; I'm adapting pre-existing language as we go.

I posted the article above because the geometry is the same but the intent is opposite: he's countersteering to lean the bike; I'm steering deeper in order to help right the (front of the) bike as I control the rear by controlling the saddle/pedals.

 

[scott43]

The obvious answer is pedal hard to move the back out and then you have to steer into the turn to save it. Then you're putting the tire back in the right place on the front. Trick is not to pedal TOO hard that you fall down. Dirt track anyone?

 

[François Pugh]

If you're up for an experiment, you might want to see what a little rear brake does in that situation.

 

[Tony S]

I only start doing it after the tire has already squirmed - the inside sidewall is waaaaay buckled - remember we're talking super low pressures here.

The OP question can therefore be rephrased: Am I more likely to burp or pinch if I keep doing it?

Sounds obvious. You need more PSI.

As for the burp vs. pinch, you're more likely to burp, but that's not the real problem. The real problem is that if your front is still grabbing and your steering more into the turn to right yourself, sooner or later you're gonna end up OTB, even without brakes, because your COM is is still moving straight ahead (ish) while you're oversteering. If you manage to hit any kind of a minor obstacle with the front contact patch during this, it's all over for sure. Been there, done that. Plenty of times.

 

[cantunamunch]

The obvious answer is pedal hard to move the back out and then you have to steer into the turn to save it. Then you're putting the tire back in the right place on the front. Trick is not to pedal TOO hard that you fall down. Dirt track anyone?

Surprising probably no one, I'm much better at modulating the rear position in the big ring.