When ski marketing says "great stability at speed", what do they mean? 40mph? 50mph? 70mph? Asking as a casual skier who can hit 40mph without trying too hard.
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Stability at speed... what speed?
- Thread starter Lvovsky /Pasha/Pavel
- Start date
Quoted for truth.
Also relative to other skis of the same type.
Also sometimes marketing BS, that they feel free to use because they know 90 percent of their customers will never test it.
A few years back, Peter Kelty (RIP) had a site with reviews that assigned speed ranges for the reviewed skis. When the site transferred ownership, that stopped. The ranges were IIRC, 0 to 10 (beginner skis typically fell into that category), 10-20, 20-30 and RACE. Some skis fit all speed categories, and some two, and some only one.
Also, besides stability at speed, which means the ski won't start shaking like crazy at say 50 mph, there is the tendency of a "shaped" ski to hunt for turns and end up wobbling if not on edge.
Stability at speed also depends on snow conditions; a ski that is stable in snow you can sink a boot into on the west coast may not be stable on hard icy snow at Tremblant.
Today, for most top end skis, the manufacturers have stability figured out, it's the other design factors you have to consider before choosing, e.g. rocker profile for hard snow, and appropriate turn radius for the size of turn you can make at those speeds.
Thread Starter
TS
Or the skier.....................
Well, yeah.. hence my question...
This is a great data point - thank you
I am drawn to the skis with smaller turn radius (15-17m)... and will be demoing as much as possible next December. currently skiing ancient Atomic Betacarve 9-18 170cm 108-64-95
Well, yeah, need more specifics. Your question is rather blue sky oriented.
Like what ski was that marketing slogan attached to?
SL, Carvers, All mountain, Powder, GS, SG, DH.
Different skis have different top limits.
But as @Johnny V. said above, much also depends on the skier. In fact I can definitely say the Indian is more of an issue than the arrow.
Thread Starter
TS
It is a blue sky question, true. Just something that bugged me for a while with no particular ski in mind. And I was always curious about how fast I cruise. Turns out 40mph peak is easy (according to Ski Tracks app) and I hit 50mph at least once. Some background: got back on the skis this January after 6 year break... a lot has changed: almost everyone wears helmets (including me after measuring my speed), most skis are 25-30mm wider under foot than my 2003 model so I’ll be on the market for new skis soon.
Maybe be a better question t ask: what does it mean “the ski is not stable at speed”? Chatters when its flat in transition or on a catwalk? Looses edge because not enough torsional rigidity? Hits a resonance frequency at some speed and loads? Something else?...
Maybe be a better question t ask: what does it mean “the ski is not stable at speed”? Chatters when its flat in transition or on a catwalk? Looses edge because not enough torsional rigidity? Hits a resonance frequency at some speed and loads? Something else?...
Here’s a great article on this topic: https://blisterreview.com/featured/what-does-it-mean-to-talk-about-the-top-end-of-a-ski
I especially like:
“There are plenty of amazing skiers out there, however, who love to ski hard and fast … but who also want a lighter, less-stiff ski for the sake of tricking and spinning, playing and popping down the mountain. And those skiers will give up some of the inherent stability of a heavier, stiffer ski — and will provide that stability themselves; they will provide the stability by remaining more balanced as they ski, rather than asking the ski itself to provide the stability.”
I especially like:
“There are plenty of amazing skiers out there, however, who love to ski hard and fast … but who also want a lighter, less-stiff ski for the sake of tricking and spinning, playing and popping down the mountain. And those skiers will give up some of the inherent stability of a heavier, stiffer ski — and will provide that stability themselves; they will provide the stability by remaining more balanced as they ski, rather than asking the ski itself to provide the stability.”
Comfortable feet after skiing all day = Stable.
Tired feet at end of a day of skiing = moderately stable.
Toenail indentations in boot soles at end of day = not stable.
Tired feet at end of a day of skiing = moderately stable.
Toenail indentations in boot soles at end of day = not stable.
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- Sep 30, 2016
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In soft snow conditions a softer ski is often the more stable and comfortable ski anyways. The only time I might want a stiffer ski is on packed powder, hard packed or icy conditions. This is where I don’t agree with the popular opinion that aggressive skiers want to be on stiff skis even for free riding. Getting bounced around while being taken for a ride kind of sucks when you want to style a steep powder line. I prefer a predictable ski that has a huge sweet spot and adapts to changing conditions without bucking me if I’m charging backcountry lines.
^^^^^This! As others have said, most skis have no issue feeling stable when on edge, it’s the “when not on edge” stability that will vary and most of that may be due to the natural turning radius of the ski.
Slalom skis want to be in a turn on edge so straight lining at 60mph is not their thing but a SG ski will do that speed in it’s sleep. The problem is that SG skis aren’t usually that fun on smaller hills at lower speeds so choosing a ski that works well for your usual speeds and conditions is key.
Stable enough to hit your “top speeds” but fun when skiing at your average speeds. Myself, I find skis in the 18m-20m perfect for my needs as they are fun going slower(30-35mph) but have no issues going highway speeds.
If you ski slower, drop down in turning radius and if you’re always going fast stay higher in turning radius.
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I usually keep it under 50 unless the trails are completely empty.
If you've always used stable skis then you wouldn't know unless you go even faster. I tried out some demos on the NH hardpack a couple years ago and the popular noodle as I call it was very unstable. Kastle and Bonafide 187 were right up my alley.
If you've always used stable skis then you wouldn't know unless you go even faster. I tried out some demos on the NH hardpack a couple years ago and the popular noodle as I call it was very unstable. Kastle and Bonafide 187 were right up my alley.
Thread Starter
TS
What models fit this criteria for you?
Bring back the groove down the middle of the bases
Thread Starter
TS
Great link - thank you! Has all the info I was looking for!
Thread Starter
TS
LOL I remember them on the old wood cross country ski when I was a kid... I learned to “ski” on something like that: side step 20-30 ft hill, straight down, repeat. No special boots. Binding was basically a leather strap. Fun times behind the iron curtain.
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Yeah some skis have a much wider envelope than their pilots. Length is also a big factor.
A 165cm fis sl ski will do 50mph,(probably 75 on the app), but your margin of error gets very small and it's not going to feel comfortable to most. Plus you have to be in a turn. If you drop it down to the 157/8 fis sl, you are going to move very, very carefully initiating a turn.
The other huge issue is having to slow down. If you have to do this relatively quickly on these short skis it gets dangerous. Just not enough ski to dissipate the energy.
Go up to a fis gs ski and that speed is comfortable. You could eat a sandwich doing 50 and make a turn.
That's why "it depends". You really only can compare skis in the same class.
A 165cm fis sl ski will do 50mph,(probably 75 on the app), but your margin of error gets very small and it's not going to feel comfortable to most. Plus you have to be in a turn. If you drop it down to the 157/8 fis sl, you are going to move very, very carefully initiating a turn.
The other huge issue is having to slow down. If you have to do this relatively quickly on these short skis it gets dangerous. Just not enough ski to dissipate the energy.
Go up to a fis gs ski and that speed is comfortable. You could eat a sandwich doing 50 and make a turn.
That's why "it depends". You really only can compare skis in the same class.
A nice article, but it really doesn't answer the OP's question.
"Put otherwise, a ski with a “big top end” will stay composed, won’t “noodle-out” when being pushed very hard and fast. It has a “high speed limit,” meaning the ski still stays calm and composed even when hitting speeds of 40, 50, 60, or (on groomers, perhaps), 70+ miles per hour."
There's a big difference between 40 mph and 70 mph, even though a crash will likely kill you if you hit anything solid at either speed.
For what it's worth my modern, but still old (the last year without the hole in the tip) Fischer WC SCs are a 13 m side-cut radius, not quite, but almost FIS SL, and are in their element between 10 mph and 45 mph. They are comfortable up to about 55 mph, swapping edges or making wider turns than they were designed for. If I want to ski them above 55 mph (which I don't these days because they are so much more fun making SL turns - I have other skis suited for higher speeds), I just run them flat and put up with the wobbliness, but they feel pretty sketchy between 55 and 65 mph. I have not encountered a vibration-related instability with them.
I have other data points for you, but the skis are so old (2002 or earlier) as to not be relevant.
“Playful Chargers” as Blistergear and others would describe them have huge versatility for many skiers. They allow you to ski in tight trees at slower speeds and jump off things but can charge crud/tracked out powder at speed the next second. They usually have more forgiving tip/tail flex that also absorbes the shocks and bumps but firmer in the center for that charging backbone. Usually higher turning radius as well for stability during high speed chute run outs etc. Not lightweight but not super heavy either and usually more forward mounts lowering swing weight.
Nordica Enforcer Free series, Rustler 11 in the longest lengths, MIndbender 108Ti and the reference standard of Playful Chargers, the Moment Wildcat and Wildcat 108.
These skis allow you to feel stable even in rough terrain at higher speeds yet aren’t demanding. Very confidence inspiring and you will start to love skiing tracked out powder and crud.
If you find yourself up above 40mph on a regular basis a change of ski type rather than brand or model is the remedy. Longer, GS skis are more stable and comfortable to ride at those speeds. Some of the longer carving skis can also be fun at higher speeds. Anything shorter and/or softer will feel sketchy above 45, even a true WCSL will under anyone except a truly expert rider... and then only on smooth, well groomed terrain.