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Spring skiing: Skis and techniques for soft vs slush

skibob

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Echoing the thread Tricia started recently, I regret that its time to start a spring skiing thread. But it is. I'll start with my question then give you some background.

a) What are the best characteristics for skiing slushy conditions. Give examples if you know of them.

b) What pointers on techinque for slush skiing do you have?

Background:
Skiing at Northstar yesterday was my first day this season of full on spring skiing. I contemplated what skis to bring. My Motive 95s I thought the shovel would be great, but the stiff tail would be bad, and they are heavy and would tend to sink. My Moment Underworlds, which were my spring ski last year, handle chop quite well, and were surfy enough. But I never really thought they were a great spring ski (or maybe I'm just no Spring Skier, pun intended). Then I looked at the "rock skis" I bought last spring*. No, I don't NEED to ski rock skis yet, but . . .

2012 Atomic Blogs 185cm (I am 6'2", 200lbs). In case you don't know this ski: 110mm waist, wide radius. Very light. Lots of rocker and early rise at both ends. Very soft shovel and tail. Stiffer but not stiff in the middle. No metal, not even carbon or glass stringers so far as I know. Mount point is about as close to center as they get. I decided to give this a try.

First 200 yds of first run I thought I'd made a huge mistake. Try going from an evolved race ski like the Motive to this noodle, and I'd never skied a ski with such a forward mount. DON'T count on those tails! But I adapted quickly. Centered stance, more upright posture, let the ski do the work. Don't count on those tails to finish the turn.

Before I knew it, it wasn't just acceptable, it was damn fun! Conditions were very soft, but definitely not slushy. It had not refrozen the night before, but there has been some cloud cover and temps have been warm but not crazy. I've never skied a surfier ski. Turning was effortless, almost like powder. I only had to think about pressuring the tip and around it came. Being so light, and with so much tail rocker, it released and came around so quickly. No thigh burn at all, because it wanted a more upright stance (I think at my height/weight, the COM was too much for such a soft ski if I pushed it at all). It actually wanted to do quick short turns which is fine with me. Despite the modest side cut, I can't image doing long R turns with no tail. Maybe I could figure it out, but I was having too much fun to bother. Big smile. This is fun! The closest thing to true powder skiing.

Then the snow kept softening. Eventually it got to the point where the piles and ruts were very, very moist. And everywhere. On a slushiness 10pt scale, I'd call it a 7 down low and a 6 up high. And this ski was more and more difficult to ride, the slushier it got. Everything deflected those tips. A LOT. ANd you couldn't ride the tails at all. If I kept my speed up and stayed perfectly centered, I could get through it with some comfort. But then I would start to pick up speed and would need some edge angle. Except in slush, there is nowhere to hook your edges to. So I would end up doing an aggressive side slarve to slow down. NO FUN! Got off the mountain.

There is probably an aggressive high angle, yet perfectly centered surf that a more skilled skier could do. I've been able to do this in the past MOL on my Underworld's (which also give me a tail and shovel I can depend on). For now, maybe the underworld is my spring ski (at least until true rock season comes, which might not even happen this year). I am a bit perplexed. I obviously need a more substantial ski, at least at my size, to get through the slop without being thrown all over the place. But a Mantra or similar has a flat tail and is heavy. Both seem bad in slop. Maybe an underworld like ski IS best? Or maybe I just need to ski that 10am to noon window where the Blog is good and forget the rest!

But I am interested in your thoughts on my two initial questions:

a) best ski characteristics for slush, including examples

b) best technique for slush skiing

*As an aside, I lazily watched these on ebay. I stared in amazement as they languished at $20. I casually bid, picked them up for $23+30 shipping. No lie. Trust me, this was random luck. You won't see a deal like this on ebay again. With FFG 13 demo bindings no less! I've never seen a topsheet more trashed. But the bases are perfect. No repairs (base is all colored and patterned so I am sure), as flat as the midwest, not even any gouges. edges don't have any burs, let alone real issues. My guess is it was an instructor's ski, who taught a lot of kids classes. Lots of kids running over the tops, but well maintained and tuned.
 

AmyPJ

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I PERSONALLY like to slice through slush on a bit of a wider ski (think all-mountain.) My husband skis the Motive 95's and has been happy with them in slush. We both get the skis up on edge and ride the radius. It's fun! Until the snow gets that classic spring grabiness to it. NOTHING makes that stuff fun; it's like hitting a patch of suction cups. (Another reason to keep them on edge: less surface area to suction to the snow.)
 

cantunamunch

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NOTHING makes that stuff fun; it's like hitting a patch of suction cups. (Another reason to keep them on edge: less surface area to suction to the snow.)

I hope you'll forgive me for disagreeing - chevron or thumbprint grinds with some high fluoros do make that stuff fun. Not so much at 30mph+ as at 10, 15, 20 mph like on runouts or lift approaches.

a) medium to stiff forebody, stiff middle, tail irrelevant. I ski everything I have in slush - except the Elan Predators, and K2 Mambas, they are just too soft. I don't ride the tails at all, and the proof is that my completely tailless Floskis are amazing in slush.

b) feet follow ski tips, using any terrain features as unweighting for air moves as needed.
 
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AmyPJ

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I hope you'll forgive me for disagreeing - chevron or thumbprint grinds with some high fluoros do make that stuff fun. Not so much at 30mph+ as at 10, 15, 20 mph like on runouts or lift approaches.

a) medium to stiff forebody, stiff middle, tail irrelevant. I ski everything I have in slush - except the Elan Predators, and K2 Mambas, they are just too soft. I don't ride the tails at all, and the proof is that my completely tailless Floskis are amazing in slush.

b) feet follow ski tips, using any terrain features as unweighting for air moves as needed.
OK, fair enough, if you are up for changing the base grinds on your skis, I'm sure it'd be a whole lot more fun :rolleyes: I've been contemplating changing the bases on mine, but then we keep getting these COLD days (last week, temps in low 20's with snow.) Might try the high flouro wax tomorrow.
 

tromano

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I hope you'll forgive me for disagreeing - chevron or thumbprint grinds with some high fluoros do make that stuff fun. Not so much at 30mph+ as at 10, 15, 20 mph like on runouts or lift approaches.

a) medium to stiff forebody, stiff middle, tail irrelevant. I ski everything I have in slush - except the Elan Predators, and K2 Mambas, they are just too soft. I don't ride the tails at all, and the proof is that my completely tailless Floskis are amazing in slush.

b) feet follow ski tips, using any terrain features as unweighting for air moves as needed.

Yep. I think most am / daily driver type skis can work well in slush. Structure and wax are key. Just carvem. Wider skis actually get more suction and are more sensitive to tune and wax.

Tips:
  • First few warmdays are usually crappy, repeated freeze thaw cycles tend to improve conditions.
  • Bluebird days seem to have best conditions. Avoid cloudy days / days when the snow did t freeze the night before.
  • Follow the sun around. Start on se exposures and then ski the sw side in the afternoon.
  • Seek out bumps when the snow gets really sloppy. Slush bumps are fun, and the easiest bump conditions you will find. Perfect time to take a bump lesson. Slush bumps ski better than sloppy groomers.
 

nay

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Oh, surfy ski all the way. Carving slush is just dealing with it - that's a crud busting mentality and it sacrifices the huge fun factor.

That max fun you were having answers the question...look into some skis that are surfy but more all mountain flex at the tip and stiffer under foot so you can bust some piles from a very two footed centered stance style when you want to point them, kicking out into big smears when the release factor is high.

A quick read on some reviews of the Blog say it's not great for bigger/heavier skiers, and your experience seems to bear that out with a small sweet spot as conditions changed. A surfy charger would seem more suited so you keep that quickness and release without losing the ability to take aim on piles in search of the elusive slush face shot :D.
 
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eok

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For skiing actual spring conditions late in the season, I'll often bring two pairs of skis with me: K2 Rictor 82xti & Kastle LX92. I'll ski the K2s early in the day, when things go from firm to nearly slush. When the snow starts transitioning to slush enough (usually after lunch), I'll switch to the LX92s.

My opinion here: The LX92s seem almost purpose-built for spring skiing. I've heard a few others mention this & I agree. The ski's profile seems at odds with this: traditional camber, no early rise, no taper - so the ski gives you all the effective edge. Probably it's more due to a reasonable sweet spot, medium overall flex and a fairly rounded tail. For me, they love to carve & 'slarve spring snow.

I wax the skis specifically for the conditions.

Because the 82xtis are on the hill early in the day, they usually just get hotwaxed with a universal wax: low/mid fluoro.

The LX92s usually get a different treatment, because they'll be on the hill during the warmest part of the day. For example, I'll crayon some soft warm weather 'hydro wax & then hotwax with a low/mid fluoro (or Hertel's Spring Solution, if I have it handy). Sometimes (for super warm days) I'll try other waxing techniques to try and get better glide in really wet spring snow - but I just get some incremental improvement. I think once the water content & temp gets to a certain point, there's only so much a mere mortal can do with wax & base prep to deal with it.

Anyway... after waxing, I scrape & brush the skis well. Really need to expose the structure for good results in slush.

Concerning structure, I use the SkiVisions flattener/structure tool. I usually just use the Medium stone for refreshing structure at times during the season. But I'll sometimes employ the coarse stone late in the season, to get a bit more aggressive structure. Anyway, works great for me.
 

crgildart

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Fat skis suck. I don't want to ski ON the slush and puddles, I want to ski IN them:crash:
 

dean_spirito

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The thing about spring skiing is that there are so many different types of conditions you may encounter, not simply day to day, but sometimes hour to hour. Conditions can change dramatically throughout the course of a day. Because of this, I think the best ski for a spring day is something that is versatile and that can handle a variety of conditions. I have two skis in my quiver that meet this criteria. If I'm planning on getting out early and skiing primarily on piste, I'm going with my Kastle MX83s. They can hold an edge on early morning refreeze but are wide enough in the tip to power through crud as the snow softens throughout the day. If I'm planning on skiing primarily off piste (probably for the purpose of jumping off cliffs to slushy landings) I'm going with my RMU Apostles. At 105mm underfoot with plenty of tip rocker, the Apostle moves through 3 dimensional snow effortlessly, whether it is blower powder or wet slush.
 

Jeff N

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Skied a lot of slush this weekend. https://forum.pugski.com/threads/santa-fe-and-sipapu-3-17-16-3-20.1594/

I'm also in the camp that feels that corn and slush are adaptable to a lot of different skis and styles. My wife skied most of the weekend on her Kastle LX82's. I skied most of the weekend on my Bluehouse Maestros with a 118 waist. We both switched up- She skied her S7W's one afternoon, I skied my Volant carvers one form morning. We skied from 9:00 AM to when the lifts closed 2 of the three days.

As this season basically shut off for us in Early February, we have been skiing a LOT of slushy conditions for about 2 straight months.

Slush is forgiving. Because it doesn't adhere to the ice/firm layer underneath, you can take pretty much any ski and wag the tails to finish turns. This sends a very satisfying spray with every turn. :)

You can carve slush as long as you keep your weight a bit more over the ski and limit the amount of sideways force. You usually don't need to go all Ligety with it to carve a turn anyways because the ski will cut several inches into the snow. If edge engagement is slipping out on your turns, get the ski more underneath your weight.

The one critical piece is that the tip needs to lead the ski into the turn. If you can't start a turn without rotation, slush will seem tough. Anne commented this weekend that slush had always challenged her, but this trip it was great fun- the difference being that after getting her boots canting corrected, she can reliably carve turns and thus the mysteries of slush are gone.

If the slush is so wet as to really grab/suction the ski, I'd look into more of where you are skiing. Flatter terrain doesn't drain well. Flatter groomed terrain REALLY doesn't drain well because the grooming generally packs spring snow into an impermeable ice sheet. Ungroomed terrain will generally drain better and stay more dry. I see tons of days where people are complaining about "sticky" snow while I am harvesting glorious slush bumps and corn on adjacent trails. Earlier this season I had one of the funnest Spring days in a long time skiing slushy frontside bumps on the front face of Purgatory. I got back in and heard several fellow adaptive ski instructors complaining about how "grabby" the snow was. They were skiing groomers. It amazed me that ski instructors, all of which are quite good skiers, could still miss where to harvest good snow conditions. So, if you can't seem to get any ski from grabbing, can you get on steeper terrain? Can you get on ungroomed terrain? Can you get on both? Sloppy steeps are great.
 

SkiNurse

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The thing about spring skiing is that there are so many different types of conditions you may encounter, not simply day to day, but sometimes hour to hour. Conditions can change dramatically throughout the course of a day. Because of this, I think the best ski for a spring day is something that is versatile and that can handle a variety of conditions. I have two skis in my quiver that meet this criteria. If I'm planning on getting out early and skiing primarily on piste, I'm going with my Kastle MX83s. They can hold an edge on early morning refreeze but are wide enough in the tip to power through crud as the snow softens throughout the day. If I'm planning on skiing primarily off piste (probably for the purpose of jumping off cliffs to slushy landings) I'm going with my RMU Apostles. At 105mm underfoot with plenty of tip rocker, the Apostle moves through 3 dimensional snow effortlessly, whether it is blower powder or wet slush.
What ski for peanut butter snow? ;)
 

nay

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What ski for peanut butter snow? ;)

IMG_0001.JPG
 

crgildart

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Plus it gives you the fortitude to go back out even though it's going to.............suck.......... :)

It only sucks on runouts and other flats. If there is pitch it's still decent skiing IMHO..
 

SkiNurse

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It only sucks on runouts and other flats. If there is pitch it's still decent skiing IMHO..
All other spring conditions are fun, but the whole peanut butter snow, even with a pitch, is never good for me. It's that whole push/pull and hard stop then push/pull again.I just don't have the weight behind me to plow through it. Maybe I need to eat more tater tots? :huh:
 
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AmyPJ

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All other spring conditions are fun, but the whole peanut butter snow, even with a pitch, is never good for me. It's that whole push/pull and hard stop then push/pull again.I just don't have the weight behind me to plow through it. Maybe I need to eat more tater tots? :huh:
You and me both. Ugh. Nothing gets me skiing more defensively than this kind of snow. I'm going to play around with some Dominator Butter as a quick rub on in our next grabby cycle. Even if I hunt down north facing steeps (did that yesterday) I can't ski an entire run of them. They only last so long before I'm on another east facing runout or flat section.
 

cantunamunch

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OK, fair enough, if you are up for changing the base grinds on your skis, I'm sure it'd be a whole lot more fun :rolleyes: I've been contemplating changing the bases on mine, but then we keep getting these COLD days (last week, temps in low 20's with snow.) Might try the high flouro wax tomorrow.

Changing? :) Wot iz dis changing you speak off?
 
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slowrider

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I use a progressive fore/aft movement in the stickies. Enter into the turn slightly aft then move my com ahead if I don't get the suckage. Over the handlebars can be refreshing in slush at times.
 

Jilly

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All other spring conditions are fun, but the whole peanut butter snow, even with a pitch, is never good for me. It's that whole push/pull and hard stop then push/pull again.I just don't have the weight behind me to plow through it. Maybe I need to eat more tater tots? :huh:

Pretzels on that menu sound good.

In all seriousness, OMG, I skied my tuned down race skis (Rossi 8S) in spring crap last weekend. They'll carve the ice and slice the slush. Might try something a little wider this coming weekend.
 

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