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Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
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Feeling grain-dense at the moment. I'm ready to commit a particular pair of skis to spring skiing. But....

1. I get that I should NOT get linear structure.
2. I get that I should get edge-to-edge structure without that flat part along the outer edges.
3. But if not linear, what kind of structure should I get?
4. Which machine does the shop need to own to provide such structure?

That's kind of a tough one to answer. The grind I have had luck with was done by Edgewise and the MMSC Service Center still does it. They call it CHV. I think generically it would be called a "thumbprint" the trouble is I don't think that many of these names are standard. I'd just go to a shop you trust and tell them what you want and what you don't want. "I want a ski that is good in sticky spring snow, I want it to be able to turn, I don't want a linear grind".
 

HardDaysNight

Making fresh tracks
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Put the ski on edge and the suction is a lot less noticeable...

My daily driver is good for a season. So, a spring structure really wouldn't be that big a deal.

Mike

This is the answer. One of the unheralded benefits of spending time in sticky slush is that it teaches you to find the center, sweet spot of the ski and to stay there. Tipping (edging) movements are lateral movements; they work well in these conditions whereas hucking yourself fore and aft doesn’t.
 

Noodler

Sir Turn-a-lot
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Do *not* get coarse linear as a spring structure or you will stuff up your edging. Some time ago I posted a graphic to explain the problem:

full


LSP1 and LSP2 and so forth act as edges in spring snow - straight ski edges!

Pardon the slight thread drift, but I really want to hear more about this issue. Is there an old thread you can point me to? TIA
 

James

Out There
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Do *not* get coarse linear as a spring structure or you will stuff up your edging. Some time ago I posted a graphic to explain the problem:

full


LSP1 and LSP2 and so forth act as edges in spring snow - straight ski edges!
So you're saying the peaks of the structure stick up above the base edge?
 

James

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Personally, I have no understanding of that graphic at all.
I think down is what's below the ski. Above is in the ski. Based on the base bevel going up and peaks going down.
 

cantunamunch

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So you're saying the peaks of the structure stick up above the base edge?

No, they are level with the base edge.

They point straight into the snow when the ski is flat and so they engage the snow immediately - whereas you still have to tip the ski several tens of degrees to even get to the steel edge.

So, just when you want to start turning you actually go straighter than you did when the ski was flat. You simply can't get to the steel edge without pushing those straight-running structure peaks into the snow first.
 

Sibhusky

Whitefish, MT
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One of the things you do when you use the Ski Visions tool to do structuring is to run a sharpener down the base to slice off those fresh peaks to allow sideways slippage. Just a pass or two. Makes a difference.

(Still not getting that graph, James. Is it supposed to be a ski? Normally I'm good with spatial drawings, but this one eludes me. I think if a full shot of a ski with this as an inset close up was there, my brain might grasp it.)

In any case, a deep, unbroken, linear structure resists slipping sideways. If you want a spring structure that is more user friendly, one of those structures with cross hatching or herringbones will be better. If you are doing your own structuring and not using a riller that presses a pattern into the ski, but using a tool like the Ski Visions tool that is cutting linear channels, you can mitigate by using short strokes and then knocking off the peaks with a cutting bar. My older skis have way more structure than my brand new ones which I haven't done much to yet.
 

cantunamunch

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(Still not getting that graph, James. Is it supposed to be a ski?

No. It is an isometric view of the snow/ski interface surface. The ski is riding on top of this surface, towards the viewer.

In order to turn, the ski has to be tipped clockwise to the viewer, completely disengaging LSP and engaging the solid edge at far right.
 

Sibhusky

Whitefish, MT
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I think I get it. The ski is coming at me dead-on and I'm at ground level. It's the perspective of the channels which is throwing me off. That makes it look like I am looking down on it, through the ski. Toss them and I'm fine. Sometimes simpler is better.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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The solid line is a cross section of the ski base. The dotted lines going up are the structure grooves and bottom of metal edge going into the page/screen. Except for the (looker's) far right line, that one is the edge of the ski going into the page/screen.
 

James

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IMG_6238.PNG

I think I get it. The ski is coming at me dead-on and I'm at ground level. It's the perspective of the channels which is throwing me off. That makes it look like I am looking down on it, through the ski. Toss them and I'm fine. Sometimes simpler is better.
Pretty much except your looking down on it a bit. And through the ski. With like a 10-15 deg base bevel. The edge has no end to it though.
 

Karl B

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Nov 14, 2015
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I agree with everyone that says you do not want a deep linear structure. However, I have used a coarse chevron pattern on my teaching skis (Volkl Slaloms) and they worked great year-round. If you are going to dedicate a pair of skis to spring use only, I would heartily recommend a coarse chevron or a cross pattern.
 
Thread Starter
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LiquidFeet

LiquidFeet

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Karl B, that is simple and direct. As a person unfamiliar with these precision details, I appreciate that. Thanks.
 

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