Spread your toes, spread the soles of your feet

[Zentune]

Last year, I was really “crunched”into my boots, and it not only created some arch pain and overall discomfort, but I think it affected my movements, too.

That’s quite likely with too confined of a fit, seeing as how even a hip-centric focus (rotate your femurs in their sockets!) will elcit foot movements and “deformations”. Hip bone’s connected to the knee bone, knee bone’s connected to the ankle bone, ankle bone.....you get the drift

zenny

 

[Brian Finch]

Watching this thread for a while. About 2 years back I started to develop a product where you would actually have your feet cast/molded to create “spare feet” that you could ship to a bootfitter.

I used, tried to use “my spare feet” to do boot work & quickly realized how poorly my boots matched my anatomy.

The result..... for this season I went with a boot that is 9 mm wider & yet 1 shell size smaller. The fit feels wonderful!

How will they ski?

 

[Blue Streak]

I’m going to try a metatarsal pad in my ski boots this fall, having enjoyed Specialized foot beds (with built in met pads) in my bike shoes for years.
After developing a torn plantar plate, I have tried various orthotics with met pads in street shoes, and it feels like they help spread the metatarsal bones and offload some of the stress in the forefoot.
Or maybe it’s just a placebo effect.
Any experiences using met pads in ski boots?

 

[markojp]

I’m going to try a metatarsal pad in my ski boots this fall, having enjoyed Specialized foot beds (with built in met pads) in my bike shoes for years.
After developing a torn plantar plate, I have tried various orthotics with met pads in street shoes, and it feels like they help spread the metatarsal bones and offload some of the stress in the forefoot.
Or maybe it’s just a placebo effect.
Any experiences using met pads in ski boots?

Not personally, but it's not uncommon if needed.

 

[Steve]

By spreading and lifting the toes, and trying to feel that pull/lift all the way back to the ball of the foot (i.e., not just in the toes), you create a functional tension that plants you in the strongest part of the foot (back of the arch, front of the heel) and activates the ligaments of the front of the shin to automatically pull you ahead. Try it.

Third day on ice skates today and I was playing with this. I'm using figure skates (more like race skis than hockey skates which are more like rockered skis) and there is that nasty toe pick in the front. Needless to say getting too far forward is dangerous on those things.

As I'm not a very good skater I'm trying to bend my knees more, this of course pushes my balance back so I have to compensate by flexing my ankles and hips.

Today I focused on lifting the toes and dorsiflexing the ankles. This worked beautifully because it both brought me forward and kept me from pushing my toes down at the same time.

The question for me is if I do this enough will it move into unconscious competence so I don't have to think about it, because it takes effort to do this, and skating (and skiing) should be more effortless in my opinion. At least on easy slopes and at easy gliding paces in a rink.

 

[Uncle-A]

I’m going to try a metatarsal pad in my ski boots this fall, having enjoyed Specialized foot beds (with built in met pads) in my bike shoes for years.
After developing a torn plantar plate, I have tried various orthotics with met pads in street shoes, and it feels like they help spread the metatarsal bones and offload some of the stress in the forefoot.
Or maybe it’s just a placebo effect.
Any experiences using met pads in ski boots?

Many years back I had a Dolomite Ski Boot and the OEM foot bed had a Med pad lift built in. It seemed very comfortable because I used those boots for years and when I got rid of the boots I held on to the OEM foot beds. I have not had any trouble with that part of my foot, all my foot issues are elsewhere. If you used them in your cycle shoes I see no reason why you would not like them in your ski boots if there is enough room in the boot for the insert.

 

[HardDaysNight]

@Steve, you sound like someone who may be familiar with the sport of skoga which is, technically, yoga on skis. I can’t believe this thread has of yet to bring it up. There are a number of yoga poses that are held while standing on the ski as a moving platform. It incorporates many standard yoga skills with a controlled measure of forward momentum. There are actually a lot of posers in the sport of skiing. Here are some of the more popular poses:

Downward Facing Dog:

Half Moon:

Bridge:

Plank:

Dolphin:

Corpse:

... and there are some newer skoga moves as well:


Twisted Corpse:

Praying for Mercy:

Listening for Indians:

Superman:

Gate Sweeper:

Fisherman’s Net:

Hilarious Whimsy:

Jackie Chan:

Duck Duck Goose:

Fred Astaire:

Cross Eyed Conundrum:

One of the all time great posts!!!

 

[Fishbowl]

Third day on ice skates today and I was playing with this. I'm using figure skates (more like race skis than hockey skates which are more like rockered skis) and there is that nasty toe pick in the front. Needless to say getting too far forward is dangerous on those things.

As I'm not a very good skater I'm trying to bend my knees more, this of course pushes my balance back so I have to compensate by flexing my ankles and hips.

Today I focused on lifting the toes and dorsiflexing the ankles. This worked beautifully because it both brought me forward and kept me from pushing my toes down at the same time.

The question for me is if I do this enough will it move into unconscious competence so I don't have to think about it, because it takes effort to do this, and skating (and skiing) should be more effortless in my opinion. At least on easy slopes and at easy gliding paces in a rink.

I skated last weekend and, because of this thread, paid attention to my feet and toes. (Inline not ice, BTW). I was suprised to discover that I skate completely backseat, or at least as backseat as you can get on skates. I guess my natural style is to pivot off my heels. I feel like I am a good skater who moves with speed and control and rarely falls. In fact I even go to the skate parks and carve the bowls. But, now I’m little thrown by this revelation.

 

[Steve]

@Fishbowl yeah, that's the thing with skating, it's so similar to skiing, but there are definitely fore/aft differences. Particularly with figure skates. I think finding that place in the front of the arch, and also the ability to use the balls of the feet without pushing down on the toes is a great learning experience that will transfer over well.

I'm excited by it. Feeling the (slow) progression in my skills is getting compelling. As a skier it's so different. I'm a very good skier, so when I don't ski well, or feel back, or am criticized by evaluators, it hurts. With skating, it's frustrating to be so bad (or slowly becoming mediocre) but it's also not as depressing because my expectations are lower, and my self-image doesn't define me to myself..

 

[Steve]

Moving here from the New Zealand thread.

The more I research this the more I realize that this is about the tibialis anterior (TA) muscle, not about the toes.

http://www.peakfitnessnw.com/exercise/one-small-muscle This article explains a lot about it.

Activating the TA raises the toes and inverts the foot. If you feel the outside front of your lower leg and raise the ball of your foot, you'll feel this muscle activating. In addition to closing the ankle, it tips the foot to the little toe edge (inversion.)

Tomorrow on skates I plan on focusing on that muscle, rather than on the toes. Still a couple of months before I can use it on skis, but I have a very strong feeling that awareness of and utilization of the TA will be very very effective.

 

[LiquidFeet]

It's primarily the tibialis anterior that closes/dorsiflexes the ankle. That's the muscle Ron Kipp implies needs to be used to maintain "tension" for flexed ankles. @Steve, are you thinking that spreading the toes is related?

 

[Steve]

It's primarily the tibialis anterior that closes/dorsiflexes the ankle. That's the muscle Ron Kipp implies needs to be used to maintain "tension" for flexed ankles. @Steve, are you thinking that spreading the toes is related?

By spreading and lifting the toes, and trying to feel that pull/lift all the way back to the ball of the foot (i.e., not just in the toes), you create a functional tension that plants you in the strongest part of the foot (back of the arch, front of the heel) and activates the ligaments of the front of the shin to automatically pull you ahead.

Yup! It also inverts the foot, thus tipping to the LTE.

I'm really interested in forgetting about the toes and just utilizing that muscle. Tomorrow on skates. I'll report tomorrow.

 

[Steve]

Remember this all started with Rodney Yee's yoga tape where he says "spread your toes, spread the soles of your feet."

I would imagine that he would not be likely to say "activate the tibialis anterior." However that may very well be the reason he says that.

At times he says to feel the outsides of the soles of your feet, "spread your baby toes."

All of which is getting to the LTE. One foot balancing is much easier using the outside of the foot.

It all is making a lot of sense to me right now. TA activation could be a very important movement.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

@Steve - are you using the TA in your stroking leg, or in your gliding leg?

 

[JESinstr]

Remember this all started with Rodney Yee's yoga tape where he says "spread your toes, spread the soles of your feet."

I would imagine that he would not be likely to say "activate the tibialis anterior." However that may very well be the reason he says that.

At times he says to feel the outsides of the soles of your feet, "spread your baby toes."

All of which is getting to the LTE. One foot balancing is much easier using the outside of the foot.

It all is making a lot of sense to me right now. TA activation could be a very important movement.

Steve, you are on an interesting path. In the end, this is about changing the mechanics of how we dynamically balance on skis. This change is driven by the fact that in skiing, we remove the ability to find surface friction/tension under foot (actually under ski) and now we have to develop a means to compensate for that lost function.

I also think Proprioception will play a part in this.

 

[Steve]

@Steve - are you using the TA in your stroking leg, or in your gliding leg?

I think it will be shortened and lengthened on both legs. Shortening before being pushed out to the side to stroke. As it inverts the foot when the stroke is happening the muscle would be relaxed.

Steve, you are on an interesting path. .....

I also think Proprioception will play a part in this.

Yes indeed, and definitely it's about muscle awareness. The first step in fixing a problem is being aware you have one right? First comes awareness (proprioception) and then comes control.

 

[Steve]

Well as I expected thinking about the TA yielded great results ice skating today. The biggest noticeable thing to me today was not the dorsiflexion, but the inversion of the foot. It helps me to get to the outside edge, or just to keep the gliding skate perpendicular to the ice.

Inversion is a counterintuitive word as it moves the ankle out, not in (the term refers to the bottom of the foot pointing in, with eversion the bottom of the foot points out.)

In skiing this should assist with minimizing A-Frame and with increasing tipping of the inside ski. A lot. What do we do to tip that inside ski? Move the knee? Tip the ankle?

Now there's a muscle, a focus to what creates that movement, and yes it does impact ankle closing (and opening.)

As I land on the new gliding foot I activate the muscle, this helps to land initially on the outside edge, and then to keep the skate from rolling in to the inside edge. As that skate becomes the stroking skate the muscle relaxes and it tips to the inside edge.

So much of expert skiing involves that inside ski. Leading with it. Tipping it. This muscle and developing proprioception of it and utilizing it I expect to be extremely helpful.

I wish I discovered it years ago!

 

[LuliTheYounger]

Well as I expected thinking about the TA yielded great results ice skating today. The biggest noticeable thing to me today was not the dorsiflexion, but the inversion of the foot. It helps me to get to the outside edge, or just to keep the gliding skate perpendicular to the ice.

Oof. Not to put too fine a point on it, but a good figure skate boot doesn't allow you to invert or evert. If you're able to invert, the issue is that the boots are laced too loose, sized too large, built too soft, broken down - or sometimes the blade is just misaligned. Might take some finagling to figure out which! Not to drag this into skatingland, but IME, pretty much every Basic 1 kid we get starts out in boots that are significantly too soft around the ankle, and their technique is hugely improved once they start skating in big kid boots. It's just a whole different ball game to skate without any of the sloppiness in the connection.

 

[Steve]

Luli, I have very high end tight fitting figure skates. I'm not inverting inside of the skate, I'm inverting the skate.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

Luli, I have very high end tight fitting figure skates. I'm not inverting inside of the skate, I'm inverting the skate.

I guess I'm struggling to picture how that would be possible? Are you talking about the hip/knee "inversion" in a T-stop? Are they broken down so the cuff is operating seperately? I just laced mine in my room and the only way I can invert is if I suddenly sprung a bodybuilder's TA, and I would break my boots immediately. The only explanation I can come up with is that you're in Edeas, in which case you're on your own planet with the Edea nerds and I won't argue further.