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CalG

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I've been doing Rodney Yee's Standing Poses routine for a few years. One of the instructions he gives is to spread your toes, spread the soles of your feet - on standing poses. I've been intrigued by the extra balance and stability that it brings and have been using it in hiking on rough trails. What it seems to do is to activate the calfs. Similar to the adage of activating your core. It feels very stable and controlled.

I've never heard this mentioned in skiing, only to wiggle your toes - to alleviate arch cramping. There is a bit of a connection between those two movements.

I'm very interested in trying this in ski boots. It also widens the foot and keeps it from tensing up.

Thoughts?


I made a similar inquiry some time ago

https://www.pugski.com/threads/a-question-of-balance-and-close-fitting-ski-boots.8339/

It would seem that some of our members look on the toes as an undesirable appendage legacy of a pre-ski epoch.

I disagree,

But I also enjoy soft boots and feel that paying attention while comfortable beats clamping down extra hard on that ankle buckle! ;-)
 

MarkP

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First thing I thought of when I saw this thread's title... How the heck can anybody do the Vulcan salute with their toes, in boots?

upload_2018-8-29_21-36-49.jpeg
 
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Steve

Steve

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I made a similar inquiry some time ago

https://www.pugski.com/threads/a-question-of-balance-and-close-fitting-ski-boots.8339/

It would seem that some of our members look on the toes as an undesirable appendage legacy of a pre-ski epoch.

I disagree,

But I also enjoy soft boots and feel that paying attention while comfortable beats clamping down extra hard on that ankle buckle! ;-)

I just read through that thread, thanks. Very relevant.

What isn't being addressed is the calf involvement that I pointed out. Even if you're not standing on your toes, or pressuring them - the physical movement of spreading your feet (note I said spread soles of your feet as well) activates the calves. Spreading your toes and lifting them is NOT standing on them at all.

Boots going on in a few hours.
 

mike_m

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Interesting that this seems to be a new idea for many folks. All the coaches I've worked with for the past several years (Jonathan Ballou, Reilly McGlashan, Tom Gelle, Josh Fogg, JF Beaulieu) advocate a dorsiflexed foot at all times during skiing. By spreading and lifting the toes, and trying to feel that pull/lift all the way back to the ball of the foot (i.e., not just in the toes), you create a functional tension that plants you in the strongest part of the foot (back of the arch, front of the heel) and activates the ligaments of the front of the shin to automatically pull you ahead. Try it.

An exercise we do with students to demonstrate this is to have the student stand on flat ground in his/her normal stance on skis. If we kneel down in front of the skier and push/pull the tips about 8 inches back and forth, the skier will invariably be very unbalanced. Ask them to dorsiflex their feet in the manner described above, and they are much more planted on the skis and their center of mass moves with the skis in a secure and balanced manner. Fun exercise to try!

Obviously there are several schools of thought about dorsiflexing, plantarflexing, and the most functional place for the weight to be on the bottoms of your feet. Try them all all and see what works for you!

Best!
Mike
 
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Steve

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Hey Mike, that is awesome, totally jives with what I'm feeling. Yoga brought it to me. Thanks for validating this, coming from you that means a lot to me!

And besides activating the calves as I said, yes the ligaments in the shin are definitely being activated!
 

Uke

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Interesting thread.

A few seasons ago I was into everything foot and one of the things that I did was try to shape my foot in the boot like I wanted to shape the ski. This resulted in the toes lifted very solid stance mentioned here. Worked so well that I Incorporated it into much of my skiing that season then sort of lost track of it as a focus. Hope I can remember it until Nov. so I can make active use of it this season.

uke
 

LiquidFeet

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....All the coaches I've worked with for the past several years (Jonathan Ballou, Reilly McGlashan, Tom Gelle, Josh Fogg, JF Beaulieu) advocate a dorsiflexed foot at all times during skiing. By spreading and lifting the toes, and trying to feel that pull/lift all the way back to the ball of the foot (i.e., not just in the toes), you create a functional tension that plants you in the strongest part of the foot (back of the arch, front of the heel) and activates the ligaments of the front of the shin to automatically pull you ahead....
.... If we kneel down in front of the skier and push/pull the tips about 8 inches back and forth, the skier will invariably be very unbalanced. Ask them to dorsiflex their feet in the manner described above, and they are much more planted on the skis and their center of mass moves with the skis in a secure and balanced manner. Fun exercise to try!....
Mike

@mike_m, thank you so much for posting this. It confirms what I've found works for me: keeping the tibialis anterior activated so that my foot is dorsiflexed all the time. To give that muscle some relief, I even "camp out on the front of the boots" when I can, relaxing forward with closed ankles by leaning into the front of the cuff. So many people warn against continual dorsiflexion. I don't understand the resistance. It produces incredibly solid balance while allowing a full range of options for moving pressure from tip to tail; one moves this pressure by moving the torso fore-aft using the knees and the hips.

It's great to hear that your list of elite skiers -- Jonathan Ballou, Reilly McGlashan, Tom Gelle, Josh Fogg, JF Beaulieu -- promote continual dorsiflexion. It has taken a few years for me to get this embedded into my muscle memory, but it's there now. The feeling of "closed ankles" is the first thing I miss when the boots come off for the green season.

I've seen trainers do the exercise you described but did not realize it connects so clearly to keeping those ankles closed. I'll start using it in my teaching now. Keep sharing what you learn from those camps with the ski gods.
 
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Doby Man

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Steve, great discussion … for debate. Ahhhh, the ever recurring bootfitter metatarsal spread debate for which I offer food for contradiction. First off, I think we are really talking about the first metatarsals for which toe spread would be a product of. It seems to me that much of the typical mechanics associated with a foot strike during a normal walking gait are factors that we depend on the boot to lock up for stability and especially as our movements are meant to “transfer” through the boot and not “expire” within as would foot spread. As an example that some may be more familiar with, the ankle sees as much as 18% inversion and eversion in a barefoot gait where a race boot may only allow 3 - 5 degrees of that lateral ankle flexion (for inside the boot ankle tipping for lateral boot leverage). A ski boot is an “unnatural” support of the foot that “is” the limitation of its natural movement for which, otherwise, there would be no support.

From all those who I have read who have written about foot/toe/metatarsal spread in ski boots have come from a podiatric perspective, a discipline from which the ski boot has never been significantly scientifically supported. We forget that feet are not “feet” when they are in ski boots. Because the skis are functional extension of our feet, they ARE our feet when skiing and where the normal “bio” mechanics of the foot are highly skewed. Functionally, the boot acts as a bio-organic exoskeleton which represents a complete shift in the entire matrix of the mechanics involved. As an example, pressure under the sole of the foot moves in “opposite” direction between a walking gait and turn cycle and where foot spread “would” reside at opposite ends of said gait/cycle. Regardless, it seems that metatarsal spread is more associated with significant ball to toe flexion in a walking gait that does not occur inside the ski boot. When we stand on our bare feet, as if in ski boots, and transfer pressure from ball to heel and back without flexing it at the ball as in a walking gait, there is very little, if any, spread anyway. If my metatarsals were allowed to spread inside the boot, I don’t feel I would have the same lateral stability that I need to tip the ski aggressively back and forth. To me, metatarsal spread would also represent an unnecessary delay in transmitting pressure to the shovel of the ski.

When it comes to “both” biomechanics and ski technique, mobility and stability tend to be mutually exclusive properties where more stability never offers more mobility and vice versa. So, in this case, I don’t believe that this metatarsal spread “mobility” would offer any attribute of stability and, more likely, would do the opposite. If the actual argument is that the extra “width” itself offered by spread is what gives stability, I believe that difference is much too negligible to make any difference (single digit percentage) as well as a dynamic that would be eclipsed by the width of the ski - our “real” foot when skiing. The ultimate characteristics of a ski boot widdle down to movement allowed vs movement disallowed where the disallowance is as important, if not more, than the allowance. In other words, we could ski in a boot that offered no foot mobility at all much better than in a boot that instead offered no support at all.

There is further evidence that dysfunctional levels of arch collapse and flat feet are associated with foot spread. Foot/toe spread even for walking may not be considered ideal: Copied from Regenexx Orthopedics site:

“The forefoot (or the distal portion of the foot, where the toes live) houses a band of tissue called the transverse metatarsal ligament. This ligament runs across the forefoot and not only connects the five metatarsal bones (the bones that form the toes at the end) but holds them nice and tight, providing just the right amount of firm flexibility to provide proper walking motion in the foot. When there is a problem with this ligament (e.g., the ligament has become lax, or loose) the forefoot can become unstable.

The foot, as you will see in my brief video above, angles a bit as you walk, so you need a firm foundation of support in the forefoot to allow that to happen. This also stores and releases energy, giving you “spring” in your step. This is why the transverse metatarsal ligaments (along with the supporting muscles) are so critical here.

Unfortunately, when the transverse metatarsal ligament in the foot becomes loose, this can not only disrupt walking and create more problems in the foot, it can also impact other musculoskeletal structures all the way up the entire lower limb, from the ankle to the knee to the hip. This happens because the energy that was supposed to be absorbed by the stable forefoot and tight metatarsal ligament instead get transferred up the kinetic chain (to the next joint or joints up). Similarly, if the forefoot is unstable, this can cause too much motion at the ankle, knee, and hip as the foot caves inward as it hits the ground.

One sign of this instability in the forefoot is toes that spread apart when walking as the ligament is no longer firm enough to hold the metatarsals tightly together. This is a sure sign of a “mushy” foot that can’t absorb forces or help stabilize the ankle, knee, and hip. Let’s take a look at the forefoot of one of my patients and compare his normal forefoot on one side to his abnormal one on the opposite side.”


Also, in regards to continual dorsiflexion, if that means no trade off with plantar flexion, I wouldn’t advocate that “stance”.
 
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mike_m

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Doby Man: Fascinating discourse! Thank you!

May I suggest you try the activity I described in post 25 when you get into your ski boots and onto your skis next season? You may find that in that situation, it has a different effect than you observe in your patients when they are walking. Will look forward to your experience!

Best!
Mike
 
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Doby Man

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Thanks, @mike_m, Of course I read your post. I know where to find the good stuff. On snow self discovery is always the best answer. While I am sure I have played with that exercise, not in recent memory. I will do it with an open mind and report back.

Though, for now, I can better explain that last sentence. I think of flexion in two categories: Static flexion and dynamic flexion. Static flexion is the amount of flexion (hip closing, knee closing and ankle closing - dorsiflexion) that I need to maintain throughout the entire turn in order to pilot my CoM at the same vertical position over the BoS. However, my other goal with the CoM is to keep it in the straightest path possible compared to the BoS. To do that, I must trade off some of that flexion with some extension but, in the lateral plane. In turn phase one, I allow my carving edges to pull my BoS away from the CoM with this lateral extension. Allowing the hips to open, knees to open and ankles to open up - plantar flexion and reach my feet out into the rise line of the turn, I am able to get more early, “upside down” carving in phase one. This “reaching out” with the feet is also an example of how inclination becomes a product of the turning ski and not a direct input of leaning the upper.

Oh, and I am not a podiatrist. I only play one on pugski. Still, though, 4 out of 5 clones exactly like me agree with everything I have to say.
 

mike_m

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Doby Man:

Good stuff! Thanks!

I have to get you out to Copper one day and we can play with this thing together! (Seven weeks until Colorado opens!)

Best!
Mike
 

Zentune

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Interesting discussion! Spreading the toes and a lengthening and widening of the foot is definitely associated with pronation of the foot aka, the “suspension phase” wherein the ground is sensed and the grf is “accepted”. And this phase IS important in skiing but only briefly (like transition to very high C) as it is a less strong position to be in, biomecahnically.

It is when the arch forms and the foot gets narrower that what is known as supination, or the “propulsion phase” kicks in. The foot becomes more of a “rigid lever” and so can provide us with a great deal of stability and ability to create and resist a heavy load, like in the belly of a ski turn on your outside foot.

There are many other accompanying movements that go along with pronation/supination such as internal/external leg rotation, knee rotations, muscular activations etc. One important thing to note is dorsiflexion as someone mentions above. You can either have a supinating foot that is plantarflexed, as in normal gait, or a supinating foot that is dorsiflexed. These are known by some as type 1 & 2 supination of the foot. Imo, type 2 (arch presents with dorsiflexion) is very much useful skiing, but either type is a strong position....

There is also type 1 & 2 pronation. Typically pronation will present with dorsiflexion (type 1). This goes hand in hand with the idea of a suspension for the body. Type 2 is a plantarflexion associated with pronation. This is the WEAKEST position to be in, largely in part because of the articulation of the ankle joint (TC) formed by the head of the talus and how it fits into the notch formed by the lower end of the tib/fib—the head of the talus gets narrower anterior to posterior.

This is why I have taken the footbeds out of my boots for skiing though, so that my foot CAN better go through these movements and articulations. I feel that many are far too locked up in the boot, especially under the heel bacuase inversion/eversion of the heel is a HUGE player in all of this, so some small movement there is important imho.

Hope this all makes sense as I didn’t proofread :)

Edited to add that I believe there is a fairly big difference between a manual conscious spreading of the foot/toes and a naturally spreading of them via an external force...

zenny
 
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Zentune

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woohoo, zenny's back :D

Hopefully that’s a good thing, lol! Been super busy with work and summer stuff like backpacking and whatnot.

Cheers!

zenny
 

LiquidFeet

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....This is why I have taken the footbeds out of my boots for skiing though, so that my foot CAN better go through these movements and articulations. I feel that many are far too locked up in the boot, especially under the heel bacuase inversion/eversion of the heel is a HUGE player in all of this, so some small movement there is important imho..... zenny

Hey, Zenny, it sounds like you want your heel to tip left and right inside the boot. A little. Have I got that right? Really?
Can you say more (being specific) about how the movement of the foot inside the boot translates to better skiing?
 
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Hope this all makes sense as I didn’t proofread :)

Say what?!!

(Just kidding, thanks for the post from one of my all time favorite epic ski members.
 

Zentune

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Hey, Zenny, it sounds like you want your heel to tip left and right inside the boot. A little. Have I got that right? Really?
Can you say more (being specific) about how the movement of the foot inside the boot translates to better skiing?

Hi LF! Long time no talk :) Yes, personally I feel that some small lateral and rotational movement of the heel is important for sure! And I know for a fact that Tom Gellie, for one, would probably agree seeing as how I have gleaned a lot of info from both him and his mentor Gary Ward (biomechanics wizard and former ski boot fitter).

Think of the foot this way: it is designed to both lock and unlock. Unlocking = pronation and allows suspension aka sensing the ground, accepting bumps/undulations, etc and locking = supination, which allows for powerful propulsion and resistiance, ie when under a heavy load. As I said above both have there own accompanying leg (and actually whole body) consequences.

So if NEITHER is readily accessible, ie you are locked up too much, then you lose a lot of fine tuning and articulation and ALSO there would then be a need to recruit muscles and joints from higher up in the chain...so, NOT skiing feet first.

Hope this helps, my understanding is still evolving however (as a caveat ;-) )

zenny
 

Zentune

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Say what?!!

(Just kidding, thanks for the post from one of my all time favorite epic ski members.

Thanks for saying Steve!

zenny
 

Zentune

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So I think this video is super relevant in regards to this discussion, fwiw. Great stuff from Tom Gellie!


zenny
 

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