smearing turns in choppy snow ... or ... tipping and riding them around?

[Tony S]

There are times when nature just doesn't care what kind of ski your on.

Quoted for truth!

 

[TPJ]

Why one or the other? I do both at the same time. A round Shmeared turn is how you control speed and make a 3-4 meter turn on an 18 meter ski without beating yourself up.

 

[no edge]

Do I ski for a firm/packed surface or do I ski for soft snow? I would say this example is soft snow. But if I am struggling, I tend to seek an edge. I would think banking turns are the preference over carving when it comes to crud. Skiing crud is not my strong point. But these chopped up conditions come in many forms and so the answer to the original question... is yes

 

[slowrider]

6" of new, windy and flat light. About 4 runs into the day the groomers were chopped up from the snow that had fallen over last nights cat work. When your on 165 Stockli SL skis you can push the snow around but it's much easier to slice through it. Winter has arrived in the PNW.

 

[WadeHoliday]

So many conditions... and intentions...!

And,
so many tip and rip comments, go get 'em boys (must be some extra testosterone in some of the comments, no?), gotta carve those skis everywhere!

I would likely check to see if the AR can drift a turn well in choppy snow or choose not to own it .

I know some people "tip and rip" down places like chute 75 or the yellowjacket at mt rose in chopped up show, but not too many, having followed the likes of Rahlves in those places (from a quickly increasing distance, )...
blending skills to find balances that put the skis exactly where you want them at the speed you want to travel is more in line w/ many of our ideas of good skiing than just riding a ski on a linear path.

Cheers!
W

 

[Ken_R]

Let's say we're talking about one or two day-old chopped up snow in a bowl.
What's your go-to turn choice?
What about the characteristics of the ski you're on that makes your choice work well for you?

I started this thread because the following was said about the AR in the Stockli thread:
"The AR is trying to be really good at many things, but it isn't going to snap rebound like a SL FIS ski. If it did, it wouldn't be great off piste smearing turns in choppy snow."

Find that comment here: https://www.pugski.com/threads/2019-stöckli.8747/page-22#post-422859

I just experienced this in Vail a few days ago (open bowls out back, LOTS of chopped up powder). Strong carving worked best. Heavier skis work best.

 

[no edge]

Tanks

 

[slowrider]

Frozen crust on top of powder. Yep carving was the only way to get through it.

 

[Tony S]

So many conditions... and intentions...!

And,
so many tip and rip comments, go get 'em boys (must be some extra testosterone in some of the comments, no?), gotta carve those skis everywhere!

I would likely check to see if the AR can drift a turn well in choppy snow or choose not to own it .

I know some people "tip and rip" down places like chute 75 or the yellowjacket at mt rose in chopped up show, but not too many, having followed the likes of Rahlves in those places (from a quickly increasing distance, )...
blending skills to find balances that put the skis exactly where you want them at the speed you want to travel is more in line w/ many of our ideas of good skiing than just riding a ski on a linear path.

Cheers!
W

Wade,

Thanks for the reality and humility check. Good points.

I was one of the people who said "tip." (I did not say "rip," for some of the reasons you mention.) I guess I assumed - possibly erroneously - that the OP was coming from the same place I see so many of my fellow east coast skiers coming from, that makes them scurry back to the nearest groomer as soon as they encounter 3D snow of any depth.

These folks have a very ingrained habit of skiing with a LOT of pure pivoting action. You could say "linked hockey stops" for short-hand. That's not the same as the smearing you're describing. When you've spent your whole life skiing on - and I mean ON - snow that's effectively never more than an inch deep, this is an easy habit to acquire.

For these people, the idea of tipping seems to help them move toward the tail-more-or-less-follows-tip movement patterns they're going to need in 3D snow (and elsewhere, truth be told). Talk of smearing tends to send them back to their hockey stops. When they try the tip-first modality, they still end up with some skidding in their turns, which is totally fine, as you state. What counts is their mind-picture of the kind of path their ski is taking through the snow.

Just my parochial perspective.

 

[Wilhelmson]

All depends. Even on the same trail same day same there could be lighter chopped up drifts up top and heavier chops down low. If its steep and tight it might be a drift into steer and hopefully a quick light turn the other way.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....I was one of the people who said "tip." (I did not say "rip," for some of the reasons you mention.) I guess I assumed - possibly erroneously - that the OP was coming from the same place I see so many of my fellow east coast skiers coming from, that makes them scurry back to the nearest groomer as soon as they encounter 3D snow of any depth.

These folks have a very ingrained habit of skiing with a LOT of pure pivoting action. You could say "linked hockey stops" for short-hand. That's not the same as the smearing you're describing. ....

I don't think that's me, @Tony S. I'm the OP.

 

[Tony S]

I don't think that's me, @Tony S. I'm the OP.

Oops. No. It's not you. Sorry! I got confused among threads. But my point stands, I think.

 

[Scruffy]

If skiing was one dimensional, we'd all be bored silly and not the enthusiasts we are. It's the ever changing and challenging conditions and terrain that keep our brains coming back for more. that said, language fails us with communication, unless we write copious amounts to support our ideas, which online forums usually don't predicate. Take the simple word "Blue", when we hear that noun there could be a gazillion different interpretations on shade, mood, and conjured imagery for any of us. So it is with "day or two old chopped up snow." Is that light and fluffy, or sierra cement that has been set and refrozen after a mist of crust, and how deep and chopped up is it?. What's the slope? Steep and technical or just an average black run? I think we all know ( anyone answering this thread, anyway) how to tip and rip ( carve ) and smear and to blend techniques in the appropriate time and place. There's just not enough information from the OP on just what type of snow and terrain, so answers are equally as vague. So we all fill in the blanks with our own experience and imagery, and type out a quick answer. Even @WadeHoliday did that; he assumed that carving in this context was high energy arc to arc carving; otherwise his testosterone statement made no sense. Carving is as easy as falling off a log or it can be high energy, high G-forces.

 

[François Pugh]

Testosterone has nothing to do with it.

With more inconsistent snow, it is more difficult and requires more skill to ski with a greater sideways component (smearing) and lesser along-the-length-of-the-ski component (arc-2-arc carving) of velocity, than it is to ski with a lesser sideways component and greater along-the-length-of-the-ski component of velocity. That's why most folk with skill at various types of skiing will prefer carving arc-2-arc over smearing in choppy snow conditions, provided arc-2-arc carving does not have them going too fast.

If conditions are such that you (not you in particular; the proverbial you) can't get the speed control you need by line alone, then of course you will do what you have to do to remain in your comfort zone (be that short radius turns, occasional hockey stops, or whatever it takes).

 

[cantunamunch]

Anyone in this thread have their pivot slip on enough to take a narrow ski that is *too soft to hold a carve* at their weight into 8"-12" of dense chop - and pivot-steer the entire infinity move?

 

[James]

Anyone in this thread have their pivot slip on enough to take a narrow ski that is *too soft to hold a carve* at their weight into 8"-12" of dense chop - and pivot-steer the entire infinity move?

“Narrow”, like compared to the DPS Spoon?

 

[WadeHoliday]

good thoughts,
when I mentioned "testosterone", it was referring to the comments of "just tip and rip", mentioned repeatedly. I understand what Tony's point is, and I don't disagree, and scruffy is right on with the clarity of what the condition is, that is part of what I was implying with my "many conditions, many intentions" comment.

Part of the reason I wanted to reply to this thread is the general gist of thought going toward the whole high energy carving rah, rah, why would you even want to "smear" in chopped snow...

I have been thinking about starting a thread on technique and tactics for the softer, slower, less carvey, less racey intentions in skiing. Of course, it's my focus, as someone who loves the way my skis feel on the snow. I've also been thinking about the softer intentions because I watched all the projected content, and almost all of it is so "deflection, rebound and carve oriented".

I was also thinking about it today as I was skiing super hard loud bumps with a 2-3 inch dusting on top of them out to skiers left on granite chief (tighter quarters, icey bumps, gullies cliffs, route finding, absorbing, and never felt a tip and rip. As i was focusing on flowing I wondered if what the tip and rip crew would be doing in this chopped up snow, with limited room and chickenheaded icy bumps.

to return to Liquid feets original thought, I think the Stockli AR could drift and absorb just fine skiing where/like I skied today.

Cheers!
W

 

[TPJ]

Anyone in this thread have their pivot slip on enough to take a narrow ski that is *too soft to hold a carve* at their weight into 8"-12" of dense chop - and pivot-steer the entire infinity move?

I think I can.

 

[cantunamunch]

“Narrow”, like compared to the DPS Spoon?

I was on 90-45-90 when I first figured it out

I think I can.

Flipping weird feeling, innit? Like using your boots to float.

 

[tinymoose]

Tipping and riding is what I'm trying to drill in as something I just do rather than having to mentally think about doing it.

My natural inclination in choppy snow when I get nervous about my skis getting tossed around or caught up is to rush the turn, which only make it a million times worse.