Small Resorts in the West in Jeopardy (WSJ)

[wallyk]

I don't know much about it, but in the Northeast it seems that in less populous areas, community support, a few local philantripists, and volunteers (yikes) might be a more viable model in this era.

Wasn't there some talk about expanding the Bretton Woods area with the objective to rival Killington, or Sunday River?

https://liftblog.com/2017/12/14/bretton-woods-plans-new-hampshires-first-8-passenger-gondola/

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx/local-news/30366-mt-washington-resort-plans-11billion-expansion

 

[jmeb]

Oh, I meant the Snodgrass mountain expansion at Crested Butte. The teo ws a good add for the expert, but the owners (muelhers) wanted more blue Terrain, thier mantra was "the money is in the blues". That's what it's all about, the $.

And I was talking about the future Teo expansion, which does add blue terrain below Teo/Teo2 bowls.

So we've got all our expansions messed up.

 

[wallyk]

And I was talking about the future Teo expansion, which does add blue terrain below Teo/Teo2 bowls.

So we've got all our expansions messed up.

What be would be the obstacles to expanding CB? Resistance from the town council to perhaps extend and modify the existing zoning rules to allow for increased ammenities like adding new restaurants and other realestate features? Have not been to CB in a while and can't vision the town.

 

[jmeb]

What be would be the obstacles to expanding CB? Resistance from the town council to perhaps extend and modify the existing zoning rules to allow for increased ammenities like adding new restaurants and other realestate features? Have not been to CB in a while and can't vision the town.

My guess rebstacles -- a lot. I don't know all the details.

First, the town and the mountain village (resort-y) area are completely separate. Different obstacles at each. In town, they obviously have a lot of design restrictions to keep the historic vibe. And I'm sure all sorts of zoning.

For expanding the mountain, its my understanding most of the non-National Forest areas near the mountain that are ranch-land are deeded to conserve open space and are not develop-able.

Frankly -- I don't think CB wants to expand greatly. They probably want to be more steady in their income streams. IMHO the way they'd do that is by making it a place of escape and 2nd homes for Front Rangers who are done with the I70 mess.

 

[Jack skis]

The Snodgrass expansion at CBMR is/was a long story, and there were strong opinions on both sides. Finally it wasn't approved, end of discussion. The Teo expansion makes sense as it's connected to the rest of the area (Snodgrass wasn't), and parts of it are being skied even though one has to hike out, an uphill hike. New lifts will make it easier to get to, and to get out of. All they need to make it work is snow, but that's another discussion.

 

[wallyk]

While not in the west, the thread about Saddleback is another negative, and obviously sad, example that the small owner/operator faces. While the demise of Saddleback can be attribute to some numerous factors, the articles seems highlight the subpar financial advice that the Berry family received from their bankers/financial advisors. Another challenge that the small business owner faces and sadly Saddleback seems like another ski area that will probably never rise again.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Wasn't there some talk about expanding the Bretton Woods area with the objective to rival Killington, or Sunday River?

https://liftblog.com/2017/12/14/bretton-woods-plans-new-hampshires-first-8-passenger-gondola/

http://www.laconiadailysun.com/newsx/local-news/30366-mt-washington-resort-plans-11billion-expansion

I think they're moving forward this summer. They won't rival the steeper mountains, but have found their niche amoung families with younger children. The gondola will help the base crowd problem, but as the article mentions it's more about providing bottom to top access for 4 season activities. We just go to Cannon on busier days and Bwoods to goof around in the glades with our friends.

If they could expand to Mt Hale or Tom and provide some 2000 foot expert runs, the sky would be the limit.

 

[Itinerant skier]

I was looking over Windhams season pass page today. I hadn't heard of the "Mountains of Distinction" before. With a Windham pass, you get 50% off midweek tix at a number of NE resorts. Almost like the Powder Alliance. Pretty cool.

 

[jseeski]

A perfect example of this is Jumbo GlacierBC, approved under a favorable regulatory environment. No air field, no local population = no project.

Yes, many people in BC are worried about this one. Very few actually want it. Although there have been regulatory issues, approvals have been obtained. Nonetheless, it hasn't gone very far because nobody with any brains will finance it. For those who say it will add something new and wonderful because the glacier will allow it to be open year round, I can say I've skied sun-cupped July snow, and it isn't that much fun.

Most ski areas in BC manage to survive, somehow, on a fraction of the skier visits that the US resorts seem to require. Look at the numbers for Fernie, Kicking Horse, Revelstoke, Big White, etc. They don't seem to feel obliged to build (and then maintain) 25 lifts and every amenity anyone can think of.

I don't say it's easy. Some are known to be struggling. Still, they seem to get by.

Another example of how it might be done is Whitewater, outside of Nelson, BC. This place is over 40 years old. It survives by not being overbuilt, among other things. It has a lodge with very good food and no overnight lodging. It has three lifts serving a little over 1100 in-bounds acres and god knows how much sidecountry. It has no snowmaking. It has no golf courses, skating rinks, alpine slides or elite luxury lounges. It's hard to get to. It operates on a tight budget that works. Nobody is getting rich. It is about skiing.

There are others in the PNW that are surviving. They aren't new, but they aren't going away, either.

 

[Slide of Hans]

Anyone have 650k? Nice little montana ski ski area needs a buyer. The scenery around Teton pass ski area is spectacular.

https://www.greatfallstribune.com/s...ag-650-000-community-looks-options/426917002/

 

[Posaune]

Another thing that local mountains can do is to partner with one or more regional places and offer a "combined" pass. My example is my Mt. Baker pass. With it I also have 5 free days of off-peak skiing at Mt. Hood Meadows, and Meadows pass holders have 5 days at Baker. Both places are independents and it seems fairly easy to do this if they decide to get together to offer it. I just show my pass when I go to Hood Meadows and I get a day pass, no hassle. Since I live about a 300 mile drive from Hood I don't ever use all my days, but having the option is quite nice. I've noticed a fair number of Oregon plates in the Baker parking lot lately, probably many of them using their Meadows pass.

 

[DanoT]

While I am not sure where all of the increased skier visits are coming from (except for Seattle skiers at Sun Peaks it is not Americans coming to the B.C. Interior), independent resorts in the B.C. Interior seem to be doing quite well lately.

Revelstoke added gondola cabins and chairs to lifts this past summer.

Whitewater replaced the old Summit 2 seater chair with a new fixed grip quad, built a new lodge to house rentals, ski school and admin offices and a small building for guest services and ticket window.

Red Mtn. has (surprisingly to me) raised several $Million via their "Stick It to the Man, Own the Mountain" campaign.

Silver Star is installing a gondola this summer.

Sun Peaks will be investing $30M over the next 5 years including new lifts and expanded village.

All of these resorts offer lift tickets and prices for other amenities that are significantly less expensive than Whistler and the major US resorts.

 

[cantunamunch]

You know I think it's time to start a small resorts (West) thread. And give the topic a highlight tag.

 

[Goose]

doesn't a lot of this simply come down to supply and demand and geography? As well as financial status of the average household? And also the ability or lack of for the mom/pop resort to attract skiers/boarders in todays society?

Sking was never really considered the "poor mans recreation" even back in the days when small hills were to be found in many places and when many people went on mediocre income still required some resources of time and money much more than other forms of recreation.
Nowadays it in general requires much more even when talking in relative terms.

Plus times have changed and free time and/or disposable income are even less to be found for the average person/family. I think that has lead to a whole lot less people/families of lessor income being able to ski avidly. And therefore the smaller mom/pop resorts have through the years lost a huge part of their main customer base.

Basically not being "the poor mans recreation" is nowadays even much more the truth than it was years back. So a much larger portion of the skiing population that is participating is of higher financial status vs years back. And most of them want the bigger and the better and/or more prestigious resorts. Imo the amount of customer base for the mom/pop ski hills is simply too far dwindled from what it use to be. The sport (or recreation) is just not in reach of as many mediocre income households as it use to be. And so then the small and mediocre mom/pop resorts which that demographic supported cant sustain the business they use to. They needed to raise prices just to survive without even improving themselves.

But is some of that the fault on the owners for not upgrading if/when they could have while things were good? IDK.....but I look at Pico in VT. I know its not the west but perhaps similar applies. Originally a popular ski resort basically a next-door neighbor peak to Killington. Which Killington had eventually bought out (I believe) from bankruptcy. When Killington opened (much later) than pico already existing for many years, they (killington) become almost immediately popular via expansions and snow making and over all modern infrastructure . Pico I assume no longer able to compete with what had become much more the modern and desirable destination resort of its neighbor. Did Pico have the ability when things were good to expand the acreage and the infrastructure? Or did the owners of the newer Killington simply have much more money to invest therefore overshadowing Pico to no fault of their own? But Pico did expand some and also improved infrastructure via lifts and snow making though not untill well after Killington had done so and at a hefty rate. So did Pico fail on its own fault for not improving themselves sooner if they could have or were they truly not able to afford to do what killington did? I of course do not know that answer.

But either way I can still go back to my prior paragraphs above where as the demographic that supported pico became less and less for the reasons given. Less and less the mediocre income skiers/families able to participate as avidly and along with them went the main support imo . And most people who do participate want (and could afford) the better (even if only a subjective term) and more prestigious destination type resort. There is imo simply less percentage of the mediocre income households participating than there use to be.

Just one theory as for any demise of mom/pop ski hills.

 

[Tony]

Another tough year for Williamette Pass (SE of Eugene, OR) who posted the following:

Willamette Pass Resort is reaching out to contact our most devoted and supportive guests and customers. The 2017-2018 ski season has been a disappointment, which has left us with essentially no operations and difficult conditions. Being reliant on the weather and the winter calendar has given us no control over this season's outcome.

Regardless of the excellent new snow over the last week, it has turned out to be “too much too late” to save the 2017-18 season for our resort. We have evaluated the Ski Area every day this season to assess the conditions and what can be offered. As the owner and operator of the resort, I take the responsibility for the complete operations and offerings we can provide for our guests. As of this date I no longer have the staff or resources available to provide the quality and safety expected. It is not appropriate to offer an experience that would be substandard at this time. It is with great disappointment that Hundreds of our staff were not able to provide their skills and service for the enjoyment of our skiing and snowboarding guests this season.

To everyone that calls Willamette Pass Resort home I want to thank you for your continued support. I look forward to serving you in the 2018-2019 season.

For customers who have purchased ticket products that they have not been able to use this season may choose from the following options:


Gold Season Pass products may be rolled over to next season, plus you receive 2 additional day passes you can use for a guest of your choice to participate with you.

OR

You may transfer your Gold Pass to any person of your choosing prior to November 15th, 2018. Transfers must be within the same category.


5 Day Pass products may be rolled over to the next season and you'll receive a bonus day, making it a 6 day pass.

OR

You may transfer this product to any person of your choosing prior to November 15th, 2018. Transfers must be within the same category.


Gift Certificate holders (any pre-purchased products) will have their certificates honored for the 2018-2019 season.

If you purchased any of the above products as a gift for someone, please pass this information along to them. Thank you again for your kind words and support toward our staff and the great sport of skiing and snowboarding.

If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us at [email protected].

 

[SpikeDog]

I read the original WSJ article this week. The 'lean snow year' focus is the main part of the article. Nothing that Pugskiers are unfamiliar with, and not really worthy of signing up for the WSJ unless you have other overriding interests to get it.

 

[wallyk]

doesn't a lot of this simply come down to supply and demand and geography? As well as financial status of the average household? And also the ability or lack of for the mom/pop resort to attract skiers/boarders in todays society?

Plus times have changed and free time and/or disposable income are even less to be found for the average person/family.

A lot of good thoughts but as the stock markets have appreciated so has disposable income. Why else would visits to Disney properties be at record levels? A trip to Disney is all most as expensive as a ski vacation.

Time is a key point.......Perhaps the lesiure time has devolved as the number of dual income families has climbed which lowers free time and reprioritizes how that time is allocated. Kids lives are over scheduled as a result of the dual income family and seems conceivable that while skiing an option for many making the trip to the mountains is exhausting. But the problem with this theory is that if leisure time allocation is constrained and a limited resource that point alone should make the smaller more accessible areas more attractive as perhaps the time to commit is less than going to a "big" area.

Past the serious skiers, which this forum has probably an overwhelming majority, maybe the smaller areas are having a difficult time attracting business due to the lack of "modern" amenities. The comparison between Pico and Killington is a fine example. I understand why skiers are attracted to K: modern lifts, lots of trails, big lodges, big parking lots.....really does retro character and local flavor/color really matter? To some yes. But to most, probably not. I get the focus being on lifts, lines and snow.

With the time and resource allocation being limited, I understand that the "intermediate ski ability family", if one exists, wants everything to be perfect. With $150 lift tickets it's hard not to have high demands.

 

[DanoT]

Last summer Revelstoke Mountain Resort installed a Mountain Coaster and it was such a huge success (hour long lineups) that according to some locals that I talked to, it will be expanded for this summer. The Trans-Canada Highway goes through Revelstoke and it is roughly half way between Calgary and Vancouver meaning summer tourism is bigger than winter for the town.

So what can a tourist do while in Revy? Answer: ride a mountain coast for $25 (two rides, I think) and it requires no ski or snowboard skills. Locals joked that the Mountain Coaster is subsidizing winter operations. It doesn't sound like a joke to me.

 

[Goose]

A lot of good thoughts but as the stock markets have appreciated so has disposable income. Why else would visits to Disney properties be at record levels? A trip to Disney is all most as expensive as a ski vacation.

Time is a key point.......Perhaps the lesiure time has devolved as the number of dual income families has climbed which lowers free time and reprioritizes how that time is allocated. Kids lives are over scheduled as a result of the dual income family and seems conceivable that while skiing an option for many making the trip to the mountains is exhausting. But the problem with this theory is that if leisure time allocation is constrained and a limited resource that point alone should make the smaller more accessible areas more attractive as perhaps the time to commit is less than going to a "big" area.

Past the serious skiers, which this forum has probably an overwhelming majority, maybe the smaller areas are having a difficult time attracting business due to the lack of "modern" amenities. The comparison between Pico and Killington is a fine example. I understand why skiers are attracted to K: modern lifts, lots of trails, big lodges, big parking lots.....really does retro character and local flavor/color really matter? To some yes. But to most, probably not. I get the focus being on lifts, lines and snow.

With the time and resource allocation being limited, I understand that the "intermediate ski ability family", if one exists, wants everything to be perfect. With $150 lift tickets it's hard not to have high demands.

The only problem with using Disney in your similarity is that Disney doesn't represent the mom/pop owned ski hill/resort. It represents the destination resort. Which would be the "killington" (at least in the east) vs the Pico or in the west would be the "vail" type vs whatever small mom/pop resorts there were at one time or are now but greatly struggling.

I think the local smaller mom/pop ski business is/was always imo much more dependent on its everyday customer base. Not just those who lived town side but also those who skied more often than nowadays who even traveled "some" to get there. And in line with what I mentioned in my last post, I think that's part of the demographic of which there is simply a lot less of nowadays. That mediocre income person/family no longer feeds the local hill as steady as it once did. Even the so called "ski bum" is far less a norm imo nowadays then they once were.

I often mention when talking about things (economically) in general among friends and family as we discuss our growing or grown children....I mention how this isn't the 70's anymore. Kids are not able to leave home at 18 or 20 yrs old and go live on peanuts (bare bones income) anymore. And similarly families are very different nowadays. The same (what I'll call "mediocre" ) families who supported and were the mom/pop repeat customers years ago are no longer as many. Those families now ski less and yet when they do they want the latest/greatest. The Killington vs the Pico. Hence the more attractive resort gets the business. So not only are there less of such families but a percentage of them are choosing the big attraction when they do go.

I think not just economics, but also priorities and general interests have evolved/changed in society along with the economics of the sport itself. For many those various reasons and others the private family owned smaller ski resort finds little customer base it once depended on when things were very different.

But ski bum aside (and sorry I keep mentioning) skiing was never the "poor mans sport" as for the masses and its even more so that way now. But that isn't necessarily only about money. People are poor of free time too. And as mentioned the changes in society and its general interests (a lot due to priorities) are different nowadays. That once mediocre family imo supporting the local hills on more a regular basis is not only less in existence but now the majority of them who do ski are instead supporting the "big" resort even though doing so less frequently sort of in line with your last sentence. That's just the way society is working nowadays. In some senses we've become a bit spoiled too. We tend to seem to want all or nothing at all for our time and money.

I can say one thing though. There are still many people making a whole heck of a ton of money. having just come from telluride and given the nature of many big time destination west resorts, when you visit these places one would think skiing is only for the very rich. And its not like that demographic is exactly lacking as many destination resorts are full of them. The smaller local resorts cant compete for that market and that market brings in enormous money to the destination resorts allowing them to improve even further and making the smaller resorts even less attractive. A catch-22 in a sense. And even the less fortunate demographic is chosing to spend their limited time and money at such places even if much less often vs doing so much more often at the smaller places. Again, just the way society works.

 

[David Chaus]

Last summer Revelstoke Mountain Resort installed a Mountain Coaster and it was such a huge success (hour long lineups) that according to some locals that I talked to, it will be expanded for this summer. The Trans-Canada Highway goes through Revelstoke and it is roughly half way between Calgary and Vancouver meaning summer tourism is bigger than winter for the town.

So what can a tourist do while in Revy? Answer: ride a mountain coast for $25 (two rides, I think) and it requires no ski or snowboard skills. Locals joked that the Mountain Coaster is subsidizing winter operations. It doesn't sound like a joke to me.

Well, they have 5K vertical feet to play with. Could be one hell of a coaster some day.