• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Small Backpack for Skinning Inbounds

L&AirC

PSIA Instructor and USSA Coach
Skier
Joined
Aug 29, 2017
Posts
356
Location
Southern NH
OK. Because I'm an idiot, I (outloud) stated I was going to skin up my home mountain 6 times on my birthday; once for each decade. Since I don't want to die doing it, along with (finally) getting serious about working out, I'm going through my gear and want to make sure I'm only carrying what I need to and I can easily access it on the move. I'm set for skis, poles and boots (mostly because I'm too cheap to change them out). I have a wide assortment of outerwear that I can figure out but I don't have a dedicated small backpack for skinning so I want to look at that.

The mountain isn't that big; roughly 1K vertical. I'm not sure exactly how long the zig zag path up is, but I think it is something like an hour climb. I really don't remember.

I'll be on telemark gear and plan on carrying a helmet, water (camelback), goggles, warmer jacket, warmer gloves, sunscreen and probably a snack. On the way down I'll carry the skins, hat, sunglasses light glove and depending on the weather, there might be a light jacket or shell. This is going to be in February and my plan is to go rain, snow, sleet or even if it is a blue bird day.

I would like to be able to not have to stop to get things out of the pack, just slow down a little, so easy on and off would be good.

I've looked a a few backpacks but there are so many to choose from I'm getting lost. Since I've only skinned up a few times, I'm hoping some more experienced folks can point me in the right direction.

While I'm at it, if there there are any tricks of the trade to skinning up or things I should or shouldn't carry, please feel free to offer that. I'm still at the "I can make it up and do something that looks like telemark skiing on the way down" mode but am a stone cold novice at this. I'm hoping getting in much better shape and practicing each weekend will allow me to push through this.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

Ken
 

Primoz

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 8, 2016
Posts
2,483
Location
Slovenia, Europe
Proper skimo tour includes also shovel and probe :P Seriously... while 300m ascend is nothing, doing it 6 times in a row, means ending up with 1800m which is anything but piece of cake, even if you are in pretty good shape. So I would cut a bit more on what you would take with you. Forget about lighter jacket AND warmer jacket and take just shell with no insulation. If it's super cold and windy shell will do on uphill, otherwise just midlayer is enough for up, for those 300m of descent just shell with no insulation is also enough. If it's too cold, turn up tempo a bit more :) If it's not super cold, I would also skip bugging with gloves and take just uphill gloves (in my case that's normally xc skiing gloves). Same goes for googles... normal sport sunglasses will do fine for that little descent. For 6x300m ascend, snack is obligatory (I would go for 2 or 3 powerbars with some water and that's it). Helmet and cap for up and that would be pretty much it for me. Backpack... lightest you can find, as you don't need much in it anyway (helmet you can strap to it, even with helmet strap over some loop).
 

jmeb

Enjoys skiing.
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
4,490
Location
Colorado
Good advice to minimize weight.

For what you're describing you don't need a fancy pack as you don't need lots of durability, features (helmet carry), storage for avy tools, etc. You probably have a backpack at home that would work fine. For what you're describing I'd honestly probably just grab my REI Flash 18. Stupid light, big enough for a few things, spot for a camelback, small waist belt to secure to torso when skiing.

A couple of other random thoughts:

- A small repair kit (ways to tighten screws, a Voile strap, etc) should go in your pack so you can always get down the hill.
- Leave warm gear, snack replacements, sunscreen, etc at the bottom in a spare pack. If it's cold out, a warm thermos of coffee will be clutch.
- 6 laps of 1000' is going to take a while. Plan to give yourself at least one real break with real food.
- Along those lines, by your second lap you should be eating a little something every lap to keep your sugars up. Doesn't have to be much -- a few oz of chocolate.
- Figure out how to minimize transition time. The less faffing you do at the top and bottom the better. It doesn't feel like much, but an extra 5 minutes (easy for those not attentive to their transitions) is an extra hour being out there over the course of the day.
- Likewise, minimize stops on the way up to switch out gear (i.e. dropping or adding layers). This comes with experience about both the weather and an appropriate pace. 300m / hr is the standard guide rate of ascent and a reasonable one to aim for. You go further and push your heart rate up, you'll end up going slower overall.
- A good way to minimize time is to not change gear a ton from uphill to downhill. In much of the ski touring I do in CO, I make very minimal gear changes for descents <1500' unless its storming hard or I am skiing avalanche terrain etc. I can often wear the same gloves down, sunglasses stay on (not goggles), softshell stays on all the time, skins go inside softshell which keeps them warm and provides extra wind/warm to me, etc. In many quick morning sessions I can go out, ski 3x1000' and never take the pack off.
 

Primoz

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 8, 2016
Posts
2,483
Location
Slovenia, Europe
300m / hr is the standard guide rate of ascent
Completely OT but still... sorry guys :) 300m/h is really standard guide rate? I admit I never go with guide like proper way (that I would hire guide and even that with some sort of group), but few of my friends are IFMGA guides and we ski quite often together, and while I'm always on heavy side when it comes to equipment but on better side when it comes to shape, I never saw nice, easy and sluggish skimo up :) Most of times it's it's between 900 and 1000m/h rate, and my HR. If it's really only 300m/h, I need to mention them next time we go, so they won't be torturing me with running up the hill with my HR in Z3 most of time of those 6 or 7h outings :D
 

jmeb

Enjoys skiing.
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
4,490
Location
Colorado
IME, yeah, around 300m of gain per hour is about the norm. See for example, Munter's Method of trip estimation time (https://backcountryaccess.com/how-t...y-touring-time-based-distance-elevation-gain/).

Personally, I'm in relatively decent aerobic shape (i.e. can run a sub 1:50 half marathon at 6000' most the year), and find anything over 450m / hr to be pushing what I can maintain for a full day. 1000m / hr would be very, very fast. That is a ski-mo pace -- faster than what Killian Jornet held for his 24hr record. And he was MOVING. Kilian's fastest time climbing 1000m on skis is 36min, I have a hard time believing anyone not going out in full ski-mo mode is climbing at 900-1000m in just 24min more than the world's most dominant ski-mo racer and mountain athlete. https://www.kilianjornet.cat/en/blog/how-many-meters-of-elevation-gain-can-i-do-in-24-hours

On my (Urner) Haute Route tour we had a team of 6. 2 IFMGA guides, 2 super fit Dutch cyclists, one avid local, and myself. We never broke 400m/hr as an average on a day, despite leaving early, good skinning conditions and an efficient team.
 
Last edited:

Primoz

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 8, 2016
Posts
2,483
Location
Slovenia, Europe
24h skimo is "a bit" different then 6-7h outing :) But I have seen till now myself, that it actually depends on terrain. Making trail into 50cm fresh pow is slow, going over really steep icy terrain without crampons is same, really low grade terrain won't bring this rate up either. Relatively steep terrain, with good enough grip not to be forced to put crampons on, and wide enough that you don't need to do switchbacks every few meters is the one where I can easily get over 1000m/h. Personally I never had issues with high altitude (back in my racing days, I was one of few that was able to do interval training up on glaciers above 3000m... not that it would matter on end result in winter races), but majority of my skiing is anywhere from some 700m to 2800, very rarely above that. Another thing I have probably left from my xc skiing career is , that I can actually go pretty much forever, regardless if it's xc skiing, skimo, running or mtb, as long as my HR stays low enough (that's basically Z2/Z3 which is up to 89% of max HR). But ok as I said, 6 or 7h, with several transition breaks and with quite some time on downhill is different thing then 24h session. And yeah in those 6-7h some 3500-4000m of ascend are normal. But then again, compared to several days on Haute Route, I normally don't have 4 or 5 such days in a row :)
 

Ken_R

Living the Dream
Skier
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Posts
5,775
Location
Denver, CO
OK. Because I'm an idiot, I (outloud) stated I was going to skin up my home mountain 6 times on my birthday; once for each decade. Since I don't want to die doing it, along with (finally) getting serious about working out, I'm going through my gear and want to make sure I'm only carrying what I need to and I can easily access it on the move. I'm set for skis, poles and boots (mostly because I'm too cheap to change them out). I have a wide assortment of outerwear that I can figure out but I don't have a dedicated small backpack for skinning so I want to look at that.

The mountain isn't that big; roughly 1K vertical. I'm not sure exactly how long the zig zag path up is, but I think it is something like an hour climb. I really don't remember.

I'll be on telemark gear and plan on carrying a helmet, water (camelback), goggles, warmer jacket, warmer gloves, sunscreen and probably a snack. On the way down I'll carry the skins, hat, sunglasses light glove and depending on the weather, there might be a light jacket or shell. This is going to be in February and my plan is to go rain, snow, sleet or even if it is a blue bird day.

I would like to be able to not have to stop to get things out of the pack, just slow down a little, so easy on and off would be good.

I've looked a a few backpacks but there are so many to choose from I'm getting lost. Since I've only skinned up a few times, I'm hoping some more experienced folks can point me in the right direction.

While I'm at it, if there there are any tricks of the trade to skinning up or things I should or shouldn't carry, please feel free to offer that. I'm still at the "I can make it up and do something that looks like telemark skiing on the way down" mode but am a stone cold novice at this. I'm hoping getting in much better shape and practicing each weekend will allow me to push through this.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

Ken


I would take nothing going up, just leave everything at the base and put the skins in your jacket for the downhill.
 

Analisa

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Dec 29, 2017
Posts
982
@L&AirC - I do a decent amount of inbound skinning for training & use a Dakine Heli Pro 20 (which also happens to be my work backpack...) - nothing fancy, just a vehicle for an extra layer, water, and a place to put skins on the way down. (No helmet carry other than straps to clip it to though. For that, the Osprey Kamber line has them, as does the Dawn Patrol 25 from Black Diamond, and almost all of the Deuter packs have loops for one - the Speed Lite series could be a solid choice). Phone & shot blocks go in my pockets, anything else gets stashed at the lodge.

The other thing I’d keep in mind is how to keep your water from freezing. You can get an insulated hose, which does surprisingly well. Sipping often also helps, and in a pinch, stick it down the shirt.
 

Slim

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Oct 2, 2017
Posts
2,973
Location
Duluth, MN
Indeed, you don't need a "ski" backpack, since you won't be carrying avy gear , nor putting skis on the pack.

So again, go look in your basement/gear room/closet for the lightest smallest fanny pack/camelback etc. Key to efficiency is, as you mentioned, not having to stop and not having to remove a pack. The same goes, as @jmeb mentioned, for anything else.

I would just use fannypack with bottle holder, like I do for XC skiing. Put skins inside your jacket. Insulated water bottle in pack.
- 41Xr64WsboL._AC_.jpg
-How steep is it? Could you use kicker skins instead of full length skins? They are lighter and much quicker to apply/take off. They are pretty inexpensive too.
-Wear your helmet full time. Use a bike or skimo* helmet instead of an alpine ski helmet.
-On many bike helmets, you can wear your goggles pushed up, so no need to pack them,, just pull down and go. Or see if a XC style visor is enough shielding on the descent for you.
Cratoni_Alltrack_Enduro-Mtb.com_Riva_Ebike-Mtb.com_KlausKneist__KKM97112-810x541.jpg

Doing this should eliminate the need for a true pack.
-Assuming this mountain has an easy green descent, use (your own or borrowed) XC poles, wrap some hockey tape or such around the shaft at the height where you like to have your hands for descending. (see skimo race videos for this).
-Make sure you have several sets of gloves at the base/top to change into as they get wet from sweat, along with food. Dry socks maybe too. Blister stuff.



*I use the term "skimo" here as shorthand for "skimountaineering racing".
 
Last edited:

Tom K.

Skier Ordinaire
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Dec 20, 2015
Posts
8,399
60th birthday challenge/celebration? Awesome!

Surely, in these circumstances, you can enlist the help of six friends to "sherpa" whatever you need on each lap.

With six laps planned, I don't think that using "domestiques" will dilute the accomplishment whatsoever! :yeah:
 

jmeb

Enjoys skiing.
Skier
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
4,490
Location
Colorado
Got to say I've had good experiences with Dakine bags as well. They opt for a durability focused approach rather than weight. Heavy, beefy fabrics that hold up well to a lot of use. Plus a good warranty program, inexpensive prices, and solid design.
 
Thread Starter
TS
L&AirC

L&AirC

PSIA Instructor and USSA Coach
Skier
Joined
Aug 29, 2017
Posts
356
Location
Southern NH
Thanks for all the responses. Short on time right now but will go through them this weekend and respond with more information.

Thanks!
 

Choucas

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Feb 17, 2016
Posts
342
Location
Vermont
+1 on the Osprey Kamber 22 as a good day touring pack. Also agree that if you are doing laps of 1,000' vertical, you can ski a lap and have your gear/food stashed at the base and put your skins in your jacket for the ride down. Yes, 300m vertical per hour is a pretty standard climbing rate for guided groups. Average varies due to distance covered, steepness, and track conditions. Nice pace if you want to hike all day without working so hard that you can't enjoy the ski down or are exhausted for the next day. I go faster that that if I'm climbing 1,000 to 2,000 vertical feet. Longer climbs in the +1,000 vertical meter range (usually at altitude), I go slow and steady.
 
Thread Starter
TS
L&AirC

L&AirC

PSIA Instructor and USSA Coach
Skier
Joined
Aug 29, 2017
Posts
356
Location
Southern NH
Indeed, you don't need a "ski" backpack, since you won't be carrying avy gear , nor putting skis on the pack.

So again, go look in your basement/gear room/closet for the lightest smallest fanny pack/camelback etc. Key to efficiency is, as you mentioned, not having to stop and not having to remove a pack. The same goes, as @jmeb mentioned, for anything else.

I would just use fannypack with bottle holder, like I do for XC skiing. Put skins inside your jacket. Insulated water bottle in pack.
- View attachment 81194
-How steep is it? Could you use kicker skins instead of full length skins? They are lighter and much quicker to apply/take off. They are pretty inexpensive too.
-Wear your helmet full time. Use a bike or skimo* helmet instead of an alpine ski helmet.
-On many bike helmets, you can wear your goggles pushed up, so no need to pack them,, just pull down and go. Or see if a XC style visor is enough shielding on the descent for you.
View attachment 81193

Doing this should eliminate the need for a true pack.
-Assuming this mountain has an easy green descent, use (your own or borrowed) XC poles, wrap some hockey tape or such around the shaft at the height where you like to have your hands for descending. (see skimo race videos for this).
-Make sure you have several sets of gloves at the base/top to change into as they get wet from sweat, along with food. Dry socks maybe too. Blister stuff.



*I use the term "skimo" here as shorthand for "skimountaineering racing".

What you brought up about the helmet triggered a thought. Instead of wearing a helmet full time, I might just skip the helmet. I'm an avid helmet wearer, but I'll be telemark skiing down and I'm slow as molasses and the trails I'll be using are mostly green. The other thing worth noting is it will be mid week when I do this so there should be very little traffic.

I need to ponder this a bit and will have a better feel for it after a few times up and down during my practice runs.
 
Thread Starter
TS
L&AirC

L&AirC

PSIA Instructor and USSA Coach
Skier
Joined
Aug 29, 2017
Posts
356
Location
Southern NH
60th birthday challenge/celebration? Awesome!

Surely, in these circumstances, you can enlist the help of six friends to "sherpa" whatever you need on each lap.

With six laps planned, I don't think that using "domestiques" will dilute the accomplishment whatsoever! :yeah:

Ha! My plan is to do this solo and midweek when the crowds are gone and very few people on the mountain. I'll let ski patrol know to keep an eye out for me along the treeline clutching my chest :eek:
 
Thread Starter
TS
L&AirC

L&AirC

PSIA Instructor and USSA Coach
Skier
Joined
Aug 29, 2017
Posts
356
Location
Southern NH
I started doing some rough math in my head last week on how long this is going to take based on reply posts in this thread and what type of shape I need to be in. Holy Sh!t!!! I have grossly underestimated the event and over estimated my abilities to "suck it up buttercup". In my naive little brain, as long as I did a cardio workout almost daily for about 30-45 minutes and lifted weights twice a week, add in eating better and always choosing the healthier way (stairs not elevator etc.), I should be fine. That and I keep forgetting I've been retired from the Marines for over 20 years and can't just suck it up, take some vitamin M (Motrin) and move on. WRONG!

If I don't stop moving the day I go to do this, except to pee and take a 30 minute lunch break, I'm looking at a 6-7 hour workout! Friday I upped my workout to an hour of hard (for me) cardio keeping the HR between 130 and 140. Towards the end of the hour on the rower (30 bike then 30 rower) I do a sprint for one minute and watch my recovery rate (so far so good). I also added in all types of lunges and do weighted leg pulls (same motion as skinning up) to build up my hips. Twice a week I'm lifting for a full hour. Each day I do some sort of yoga.

At the end of October I'm planning on the cardio to be at 2 hours and be able to do a two minute sprint. I think as long as I hold that and every now and again do a three hour stretch, I'll be OK. The day of the event isn't a race so I can pace myself.

Well, at least I should end up in pretty good shape.

I can't believe how far off I was.
 

Sponsor

Top