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ski otter 2

Making fresh tracks
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Hi. The 72 year old again. Playing with different skis, I've been skiing slush a bit lately: today and yesterday, for instance. At least three times a week, since that's all that's been open.

The K2 Pinnacle 105 186 really is probably the easiest, least tiring and yet top ski for that I've been on or know of first hand, a ski that is very accessible to advanced skiers of all sublevels (dang instructor pigeon holes). I'm referring to use on a wide range of spring slush/crud groomers, including steep.

For me, I'm mostly avoiding bump runs now too, like the OP. I get too tired, and it's too hard on my legs and stamina. When younger, I used to ski Pali, the same slope @tball showed, from first chair to last, day after day. Slush, crud or chaulk. Now, I avoid that, especially once the slush season arrives (and I'm only good for a few runs on Pali a day, or I lose too much edge too quickly). tball's tests of skis on Pali are interesting, indirectly maybe somehow applicable, but mostly maybe not what the OP asked for, and maybe misleading. Steep groomers and Pali steep slush moguls do not necessarily equate, in terms of ski choices. For example, his last choice there, the Sickles 111, are a terrific ski for spring slush groomers, both steep and non-steep, and crud skiing on groomers or mild off piste (areas that mildly bump up but get groomed maybe once a week or so). Better than the Moment Bibby Pros for that particular terrain/conditions, for instance. (I have and use both size Bibbys and Sickles also. While great in powder/crud, the Bibbys are relatively not so hot in slush, at least for me.)


On steep groomer slush/crud skis that are less taxing: Until it closed, I was happy as a duck over on the Beavers runs (some groomed and steep - again, like the OP said he prefers). I've found two skis best for me on steep groomers, including for slush and crud groomer days: 1. Rossi 165 FIS/WC spec SL skis: they can't be beat on steep groomers, chaulk, corduroy, crud and slush. I've been skiing exactly that terrain and those conditions for over a month there. If the OP can handle such a ski, then it's tops. But the next ski is close also. 2. When crud or slush get deeper, then I use either the SL still, or use a pair of Volkl V-Werks Mantras 99/178. My pair skis a lot like a fatter, versatile slalom ski, except it floats a bit and slarves when needed. Just tops in crud and spring slush both. (There is a further explanation to this ski for this use, but too much detail here, unless this ski is of interest to the OP or others wanting the same sort of top steep groomer or steep smooth slope ski.)

I've found a lot of combinations that work in slush on the groomers. I say combinations, because I may ski a narrow ski at first, for the re-freeze turning into slush, then a wider ski once it's oceans and mountains of slush. (FIS 165 SL, for instance, then V-Werks Mantras or Katanas or Sickles or k2 Pinnacle 105s, etc.) I think there are lots of both wider and narrower skis that fit the bill for slush in this way, but I've mentioned some of the great ones I use myself, rather than ones others folks have told me about.

Also:
In my experience, the V-Werks skis are much better in slush than the Bibbys (both the 191 and 184 V-Werks Katanas and my finally fixed 178 V-Works Mantras, even though all these are great in mid-season powder/crud.

Almost by accident, I also own the M5 Mantras, 178. Relatively speaking, these are no where near as good in slush, though fine in mild crud.
 

ski otter 2

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P.S I'm assuming the OP knows about the role of spring wax (for slush)/graphite wax (for snow dirt), and base texture for spring skiing. At least one - waxes or texture - seems necessary. Both would be better, more than likely, but I hate to heavily texture the base of a ski for just that one condition.
 
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François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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I prefer to carve my turns arc-2-arc. My old 190 cm Volant Machete Gs are like pushing the easy button in slush piles compared to my other skis. I put it down to the heavy weight, stiffness and longish (~27 m) radius. I see who-ever owns them now out is still making some skis. On paper, it seems like the longest Black Spear would do well, but maybe a used pair from interwebs would be a better buy.
https://shop.volantski.com/en/products/black-spear-ft-12-gw-aa4053.html
 

markojp

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There are many skis much newer and in the wrapper that will ski better than your old Volants there, FP. A pair of Navigator 90's on closeout is an immediate example.
 

ski otter 2

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Thanks, @Bill Miles. This is a fun topic, especially this time of year.

Dang, I think a lot of skis will work for slush and steep slush groomers, not sure why with any of them, except the specific designs maybe, narrow, mid or mid-wide. So many good skiers on so many different good skis.

So I was thinking about this, this Fri., Sat. & Sun at A Basin in the groomer slush. (See combinations below.) A pair of Stockli Laser AX 78/183s turned out to be perfect, with the right wax. I'd planned a late switch to Rossi Sickles (same ones as @tball), but never got around to that.

On Laser AXes: At first I was skiing with two chargers, ex racer/instructor guys who need to be first, fast and pushing. One up in front, poling out ahead, on those NTN telemark bindings to handicap himself; the other at my heels - I could hear the skis scraping - first chair runs one after another. Whew.

I thought, "Man, I need to get away to do my own thing." So I did.

With the Stocklis (a relatively narrow 78, and long - 183), riding the edge freeride style with the mount a bit forward is fun. Doing that, I started exaggerating the edge ride into what the ski liked with big and little carves (on the groomers slowly going to slush on a cooler day). The skis came alive, timing synced, and I got in a groove. Much better than the fast group charge of the previous runs. Just playing.

Then a freestyler came along and liked what I was doing. He started doing butters and 180° spins going fast in front of me, then around me, me around him, him then charging backwards, spinning and lowering his outer pants (on suspenders??) like a hip-hopper as he was skiing in front of me, while doing these hand on the snow huge carves, as if he was a pro snowboarder. Heavens. Fun.

He turned out to be a pro freestyle skier instead, laughing away at the old guy with the beard carving away, playful. What an unusual, unexpected interaction.

But on my own, I'd just gotten into a much more creative style and space, looser and more in sync; and the skiing became better and easier in all that spring slush, whatever its unevenness. It was a bit of a sorta breakthrough for me. Think I'll retain some of it.

That fellow had an outrageous costume on he'd designed and made himself, on skis he'd designed the graphics for and had custom-made (free for their pro). And he just caught me skiing in a neater way than I had in days, on a ski that rocks on groomer slush, Ullr (and the designers) know why.

Spring combinations used lately:
previous Friday (last day on Beavers steep groomers)
1. Rossi 165/13 FIS SL (makes steep sl turns almost restful)
2. K2 Pinnacle 105 (wow, long live freeride)
Friday
1. old spec woman's GS 183/23 (needs corduroy too flat but really trenches) &
2. K2 Pinnacle 105 again (easy & fun)
Saturday
1. Head World Cup Rebel iSpeed 180/18 (very fun in the fall line, but slightly short) &
2. Katana V-Werks 184/22 (great for a while, then got tired - just last year I did better in the same conditions)
Sunday
1. Stockli Laser AX 78/183 (so good I just couldn't stop to switch to 2, Rossi Sickles 111/183).
 

CalG

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I find that I can ski just about any ski in slush/crud. All the different types have their pros an cons.
The ONE thing that is universal however, I MUST PAY ATTENTION. 100%

The Price of freedom is constant vigilance! (listen to Warren Miller MOTH radio clip)

But really, Isn't that why we ski? To stay focused, to feel meaning in every moment, in every action.

I feel that is so for me.
 

Ken_R

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Of my three pairs of skis the Black Crow Navis just rule spring conditions. So I would look for a 90~105mm wide ski that is not too heavy and not super stiff. Some rocker up front helps. Dont get me wrong, the Monsters are awesome too in those conditions but when it gets too soft / deeper they tend to sink too much and get stuck more often. YMMV
 

tball

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Thanks for the write-ups @ski otter 2 - fun stuff!

Your analysis makes me even more convinced that picking the correct ski for spring conditions is difficult. It's so much harder than picking the right ski for winter snow.

In the spring we ski on combinations of:
  1. Morning refrozen groomed
  2. Morning refrozen bumps
  3. Afternoon slush groomed
  4. Afternoon slush bumps
And, there are limitless degradations of refrozen-->slush and groomed-->bumps. No wonder it's tough to choose the right ski and folks have such varying opinions!

One note on my Sickles: I just had them tuned when I did my Pali test. Not sure they liked being tuned so much. They wanted to go straight and felt long instead of being their usual turney selves. My tuning guy said to take them for a run and then detune them to taste. That was the one run. They need to be detuned, especially for spring Pali bumps. Not sure detuning would have changed the final outcome, but I don't want to be the first person on the Internet to say anything bad about those skis without a caveat. :)
 

James

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Thanks for the write-ups @ski otter 2 - fun stuff!

Your analysis makes me even more convinced that picking the correct ski for spring conditions is difficult. It's so much harder than picking the right ski for winter snow.

In the spring we ski on combinations of:
  1. Morning refrozen groomed
  2. Morning refrozen bumps
  3. Afternoon slush groomed
  4. Afternoon slush bumps
And, there are limitless degradations of refrozen-->slush and groomed-->bumps. No wonder it's tough to choose the right ski and folks have such varying opinions!

One note on my Sickles: I just had them tuned when I did my Pali test. Not sure they liked being tuned so much. They wanted to go straight and felt long instead of being their usual turney selves. My tuning guy said to take them for a run and then detune them to taste. That was the one run. They need to be detuned, especially for spring Pali bumps. Not sure detuning would have changed the final outcome, but I don't want to be the first person on the Internet to say anything bad about those skis without a caveat. :)
They need to be tuned properly, not detuned to make a bad tune acceptable.
 

tball

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They need to be tuned properly, not detuned to make a bad tune acceptable.
Yeah, maybe.

Or maybe the tips and tails were just a bit too sharp. That was the case with my 8.5 Ti's and they skied better after I dulled them a bit. They were tuned by the same guy at the same time. My Navigators that were also tuned at the same time didn't need anything of the sort. I think it depends on the skier and the ski.

Detuning might be too strong, more making not so sharp at the tips and tails.

I'm the furthest dude ever from a tuning expert (spoiled with CO snow), but I've done this for years after having my skis tuned. Try them, then dull a short amount of the tips and tails a bit to taste.

All the bump skiers used to do it. Not sure about these days.

I don't think we should get into the detuning discussion here. There's a good thread about detuning:
https://www.pugski.com/threads/detune-skis-shovel-and-tail-or-not.12552/

I'm happy to discuss in that thread if anyone likes. Just quote this post over there.
 

DocGKR

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Wow, nice to know I am not the only person on a quixotic quest for perfect spring skis to deal with early morning hard crust, mid-day corn, and late afternoon slush. We do all sorts of trials at work, so I decided to experiment at bit on the mountain, like others have described. For a single ski approach to Spring conditions, it seemed that skis in the 80-90 mm range worked best for me—Brahma, Enforcer 88, and Monster all seemed to work acceptably, as did the Rossi Hero Plus Ti.

I also tried using 2 pairs of skis each day—something with good grip on hard snow in the 65-70 mm range for the morning and then 98mm+ for the afternoon. This seemed promising, so I kept experimenting with 2 ski options. The most fun was starting the day on Rossi FIS SL skis (67mm / 165cm / 13m) and switching to Nordica Enforcer Pro’s (115mm / 191 cm / 21.5m) for the afternoon. Wow, that was a blast! The FIS SL’s worked great on the hard morning groomers and hard bumps and the big Enforcers were fun in the soft slushy afternoon snow, including soft bumps. I use to compete in Tournament water skiing back in the 70’s and 80’s—the big Enforcer Pro’s turning in the slush felt kind of like a pair of jump ski’s cutting to the ramp.
GKR cut to ramp.jpg
GKR launched.jpg
 

ski otter 2

Making fresh tracks
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Front Range, Colorado
Thanks for the write-ups @ski otter 2 - fun stuff!

Your analysis makes me even more convinced that picking the correct ski for spring conditions is difficult. It's so much harder than picking the right ski for winter snow.

In the spring we ski on combinations of:
  1. Morning refrozen groomed
  2. Morning refrozen bumps
  3. Afternoon slush groomed
  4. Afternoon slush bumps
And, there are limitless degradations of refrozen-->slush and groomed-->bumps. No wonder it's tough to choose the right ski and folks have such varying opinions!

One note on my Sickles: I just had them tuned when I did my Pali test. Not sure they liked being tuned so much. They wanted to go straight and felt long instead of being their usual turney selves. My tuning guy said to take them for a run and then detune them to taste. That was the one run. They need to be detuned, especially for spring Pali bumps. Not sure detuning would have changed the final outcome, but I don't want to be the first person on the Internet to say anything bad about those skis without a caveat. :)

In my experience, these (in bold red) are both symptoms of a rail high tune, often - something shop tune machines are notorious for. Skis might even feel heavier than usual. Detuning will just gloss over the problem, which is probably that the edges are a bit higher than the base (concave bases instead of flat or convex). Usually, when this is the case from a tuning machine, the railing is greater tip and tail, where the ski is wider, than in the center. (Just check with a backlit straight edge.) The result of the greater railing at tip and tail is to, in effect, give the ski an inconsistent base edge bevel, in a bad way - shallower base bevel tip and tail, more slanted towards the center. Racers or freestylers will often tune their skis to have exactly the reverse kind of base bevel: shallower underfoot, more slanted tip and tail for more forgiveness (e.g., the Atomic Bent Chet skis, for instance, with their boat prow shape).
 

DocGKR

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It is amazing to me that two skis with such dramatically different characteristics can both be so fun--aptly illustrating for me just how diverse the mountain environment is and why skiing is such a joyful endeavor!

165:67 vs 191:115.JPG
 

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