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dbostedo

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Nah - I don't think pulling the feet back can compensate for hunching forward - your hips would still be back...

In general, the back should be fairly upright, in SL (i.e. every day skiing)... that's why I reacted to the hip flexion in the first place.

Pulling the feet back is quite similar to, but more descriptive/prescriptive than just saying "shin pressure" or "close ankles", if you think about it ;) as it prescribes also the "how to".

cheers

-what's-a-nice-smiley-to-insert-here-

I might have posted this before in this thread, and I've definitely posted it in other threads. For me, "feeling the front of the ankle tense" as it does when you close it, was by far the best thought for me. "Pulling the feet back" as a thought to put into practice didn't work for me. I think I tended to flex my knees to pull the feet back, rather than close my ankle, and never found balance.
 

razie

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I might have posted this before in this thread, and I've definitely posted it in other threads. For me, "feeling the front of the ankle tense" as it does when you close it, was by far the best thought for me. "Pulling the feet back" as a thought to put into practice didn't work for me. I think I tended to flex my knees to pull the feet back, rather than close my ankle, and never found balance.

Yeah - that's fair - I see that a fair bit. Communicating the biomechanics clearly is a challenge, for sure. I actually went back and edited my post to add a visual, just to make sure.

"Pulling the feet back" I think works as a cue or instruction, when explained properly, by that I mean by someone who knows exactly what they want to get across, using demos and explanations and then it works as a cue. Just saying to someone "pull your feet back" would totally be open to interpretations, you're right.

Anyways, dorsiflexion, i.e. closing the ankle is really what we're talking about, except there are situations where one could still let the feet slide forward while trying to dorsiflex and still be back, like I don't know, bouncing off the back of the cuffs or such.

In racing circles you may hear cues like "keep your feet underneath you" - do you think that would work better? I can see some conflict with that creating some "standing up" thoughts, so I don't use it much - I see Jes finds it works for beginners, so that's cool.

cheers
 

Monique

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I think as a coach/instructor, the best thing you can do is try different ways of expressing a concept until one works for the student.

There is no single description that will work for all students, and looking for it is a fool's errand. But pay attention to how other trainers express the same concept and build up a library of different descriptions, just as you are surely building up a toolbox full of drills.
 

dbostedo

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Yeah - that's fair - I see that a fair bit. Communicating the biomechanics clearly is a challenge, for sure. I actually went back and edited my post to add a visual, just to make sure.

"Pulling the feet back" I think works as a cue or instruction, when explained properly, by that I mean by someone who knows exactly what they want to get across, using demos and explanations and then it works as a cue. Just saying to someone "pull your feet back" would totally be open to interpretations, you're right.

Anyways, dorsiflexion, i.e. closing the ankle is really what we're talking about, except there are situations where one could still let the feet slide forward while trying to dorsiflex and still be back, like I don't know, bouncing off the back of the cuffs or such.

In racing circles you may hear cues like "keep your feet underneath you" - do you think that would work better? I can see some conflict with that creating some "standing up" thoughts, so I don't use it much - I see Jes finds it works for beginners, so that's cool.

cheers

For me, the instructor described feeling tension on the front of the ankle (like when you dorsiflex) and we stood still on the slope for a bit, and I rocked back and forth while holding a good position, so I was just using the ankle. That let me feel it... then we skied a couple of runs while I tried to maintain that tension. (We were also working on not bending at the waist, and having good posture - I'm always fighting backseat.)

I think it helped me a lot. I can be forward and balanced a lot easier now, and if I find myself backseat, I know what it should feel like to correct (mostly... still taking lessons). Being told to pull my feet back just didn't get me there.
 

Seldomski

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Will just chime in to say - it's not surprising that communicating this stuff in words is imprecise and difficult.

Describing motion of multiple parts of a robot formally requires something like:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Robot...amics/Description_of_Position_and_Orientation

Add to that the fact that human joints can be approximated as mechanisms, like the knee being a hinge. However, the knee joint isn't actually that limited. So even defining where exactly the 'center' of that joint is and the angle it is making varies based on the position of the joint.
 

razie

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For me, the instructor described feeling tension on the front of the ankle (like when you dorsiflex) and we stood still on the slope for a bit, and I rocked back and forth while holding a good position, so I was just using the ankle. That let me feel it... then we skied a couple of runs while I tried to maintain that tension. (We were also working on not bending at the waist, and having good posture - I'm always fighting backseat.)

I think it helped me a lot. I can be forward and balanced a lot easier now, and if I find myself backseat, I know what it should feel like to correct (mostly... still taking lessons). Being told to pull my feet back just didn't get me there.

A couple things. Feeling like you're fighting a backseat often may be a result of having a hard time separating the upper and lower body. i.e. skiing a little tense and square. I would look at that for a while, at improving separation (counteraction, coiling).

I don't even work fore/aft much, even at the FIS level. In maybe 15 training and racing days this season so far, so over 50 hours of training, I think I spent in all maybe one hour on that in total. There's a lot of other stuff that is more important and if everything else works fine and the skier is separating and flexing and extending and tipping properly and controls the boots reasonably, fore/aft is mostly there already... and I'll probably get a lot of flack for saying that, eh?

:duck:
 
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dbostedo

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A couple things. Feeling like you're fighting a backseat often may be a result of having a hard time separating the upper and lower body. i.e. skiing a little tense and square. I would look at that for a while, at improving separation (counteraction, coiling).

I don't even work fore/aft much, even at the FIS level. In maybe 15 training and racing days this season so far, so over 50 hours of training, I think I spent in all maybe one hour on that in total. There's a lot of other stuff that is more important and if everything else works fine and the skier is separating and flexing and extending and tipping properly and controls the boots reasonably, fore/aft is mostly there already... and I'll probably get a lot of flack for saying that, eh?

:duck:

The problem is that I spent 25 years skiing very backseat (having learned on straight skis, not understanding tipping, etc.) before taking another lesson and skiing more a couple of seasons ago. Realizing that I didn't have to ski with my quads on fire was a revelation. I'm still fighting old habits and feelings. Upper/lower separation is coming along.
 

Monique

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Tony S

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if everything else works fine and the skier is separating and flexing and extending and tipping properly and controls the boots reasonably

And my Powerball number comes up!
 

Tony S

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For me, the instructor described feeling tension on the front of the ankle (like when you dorsiflex) and we stood still on the slope for a bit, and I rocked back and forth while holding a good position, so I was just using the ankle. That let me feel it... then we skied a couple of runs while I tried to maintain that tension. (We were also working on not bending at the waist, and having good posture - I'm always fighting backseat.)

I think it helped me a lot. I can be forward and balanced a lot easier now, and if I find myself backseat, I know what it should feel like to correct (mostly... still taking lessons). Being told to pull my feet back just didn't get me there.

This whole post shows a key element that we often are afraid to say: The student has to learn how to learn.
 

razie

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If you flex, balance usually isn't a concern.

Flex what?
Flex when?

Flexing and extending... everything, throughout the turn. That's pretty good insight.

Contrast flexing with stiff and hard hits and being pushed around, out of balance and you'll have a good picture of how flexing and separation create balance.

:thumb:
 

LiquidFeet

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Oh come on.
Flex elbows? Flex both knees at the same time, or differentially? Flex ankles, opening and closing them, through each turn, or maintain their flexion through the entire run? Every flex requires an extension. Extend at the top of the turn, or at the fall line? Does "flex" mean stay squatty through the whole run? All of these are decent guesses.

"Flex" without more words is not a useful suggestion; it offers too many interpretive options.

If one wants to be talk about the whole body, "loosen up" would be a better word choice.
 

Monique

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This whole post shows a key element that we often are afraid to say: The student has to learn how to learn.

Which is one of the reasons competitive athletes often do so well learning new sports. (The other of course being that, well, they're athletes.)
 

Doby Man

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The main reason why there are a lot of pretty good pure carve turners out there that can’t seem to come close to that on the steeps is because they are not starting the turn with enough shovel pressure. This is for two basic reasons.

First, shaped skis allows developing skiers to do everything from a centered position/stance in a way that wasn't possible on straight skis. All one has to do is to tip the ski to make it turn. More tipping, more turning. Any expert with current technique can pure carve moderate pitches with today’s skis. However, that is not how things work on the steeps. The only way to apply speed control in a pure carved turn (w/o skid/friction`) on the steeps is to round out or deepen the turn shape, otherwise to achieve a higher degree of turn through more ski “bending”. Skiers that start a turn more aft under the feet may be making “quick” turns that “look” short but, technically, they are very shallow and the actual radius is very large. Both the aft position and the shallow turning (large radius) makes the skis go even faster. When we make the shovel bend before the rest of the ski and run a concentrated area of pressure from tip to tail, the ski actually bends a little more thus redirecting the ski to a higher degree of turn without breaking from edge locked status to any degree. Also, this fore/aft working of the ski allows the tail’s edge track to follow the shovel’s edge track more accurately and with more concentrated pressure both which makes a difference when seeking premium penetration over ice. The main reason that WC skiers have super stiff forward flexing boots is because they work the ski fore to aft through the entire turn. The lateral stiffness of a boot more reflects the lateral tipping control that is typically easier to apply with most boots. Work on bending the shovel before bending the whole ski on the flats. Then work on seeing if you can bend the tail at turn exit without dropping the CoM in the back seat. The dolphin turn drill is a good task to learn the full scale and capacity of fore to aft movement over the ski for when the ski stays in contact with the ground. Then return to the steeps and try it there.

Secondly, it just gets a bit trickier on the steeps as fore/aft balance is increasingly challenged as the slope steepens while the ski is in the fall line. If our CoM is piloted steady and stable, we have more freedom to work the ski under the CoM without fear. Of course, continually increasing pitch will eventually demand speed control with friction no matter how good one can carve.
 

Rod9301

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The main reason why there are a lot of pretty good pure carve turners out there that can’t seem to come close to that on the steeps is because they are not starting the turn with enough shovel pressure. This is for two basic reasons.

First, shaped skis allows developing skiers to do everything from a centered position/stance in a way that wasn't possible on straight skis. All one has to do is to tip the ski to make it turn. More tipping, more turning. Any expert with current technique can pure carve moderate pitches with today’s skis. However, that is not how things work on the steeps. The only way to apply speed control in a pure carved turn (w/o skid/friction`) on the steeps is to round out or deepen the turn shape, otherwise to achieve a higher degree of turn through more ski “bending”. Skiers that start a turn more aft under the feet may be making “quick” turns that “look” short but, technically, they are very shallow and the actual radius is very large. Both the aft position and the shallow turning (large radius) makes the skis go even faster. When we make the shovel bend before the rest of the ski and run a concentrated area of pressure from tip to tail, the ski actually bends a little more thus redirecting the ski to a higher degree of turn without breaking from edge locked status to any degree. Also, this fore/aft working of the ski allows the tail’s edge track to follow the shovel’s edge track more accurately and with more concentrated pressure both which makes a difference when seeking premium penetration over ice. The main reason that WC skiers have super stiff forward flexing boots is because they work the ski fore to aft through the entire turn. The lateral stiffness of a boot more reflects the lateral tipping control that is typically easier to apply with most boots. Work on bending the shovel before bending the whole ski on the flats. Then work on seeing if you can bend the tail at turn exit without dropping the CoM in the back seat. The dolphin turn drill is a good task to learn the full scale and capacity of fore to aft movement over the ski for when the ski stays in contact with the ground. Then return to the steeps and try it there.

Secondly, it just gets a bit trickier on the steeps as fore/aft balance is increasingly challenged as the slope steepens while the ski is in the fall line. If our CoM is piloted steady and stable, we have more freedom to work the ski under the CoM without fear. Of course, continually increasing pitch will eventually demand speed control with friction no matter how good one can carve.
This is what I was working on a couple of weeks ago. Pulling the feet back at transition, very strongly, allowed me to pressure the tips and be able to ski a 3 meter corridor, 40 degrees steep or maybe up to 45.

Pretty cool feeling not to have to jump at all in such a steep and narrow couloir.
 

Jamt

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I might have posted this before in this thread, and I've definitely posted it in other threads. For me, "feeling the front of the ankle tense" as it does when you close it, was by far the best thought for me. "Pulling the feet back" as a thought to put into practice didn't work for me. I think I tended to flex my knees to pull the feet back, rather than close my ankle, and never found balance.
Closing the ankle in this way may work, but it is important that this is only something you do in transition or very early in the turn. When the pressure starts to really build you'd better be balanced primarily on the balls of the outside foot. If you continue to actively close your ankle you only have the heels and the shaft left as balance points, which is not a good foundation, and that may very well send you into the back seat, the very thing you wanted to avoid from the start. If you are balanced on the balls of the feet you are forward, and you can still pressure the shafts, but only with help from the turn forces and eccentric contraction.
The tricky thing with fore-aft is that when the shovels engage the pressure point under the skis move forward, and if you are not moving the body parts accordingly this pressure point shift will send you quickly into the back seat. This move starts in the end of the previous turn.
 

François Pugh

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If you are carving arc-2-arc you are losing the minimum amount of energy to friction and doing the least amount of work on the moving object to slow it down. A force applied at 90 degrees to the moving object does not slow it down, only the friction force applied tangentially to it slows it down.

With no losses, all of the potential energy due to height, mgh becomes kinetic energy, 1/2 m (V^2), your velocity would be the square root of 2gh after desending a height of h. A little less with losses IFF you are pure arc-2-arc carving. You will quickly reach terminal velocity on steeps if you are pure arc-2-arc carving.

If you do not have a DH or SG ski with a LOOOOONG turn radius, you will not be carving pure arc-2-arc turns at the speeds you will soon reach on steeps with good carving technique.

It's simple physics:
To hold a 2 g turn with a 26 m turn radius ski you need to tip it up to 63 degrees to reach critical angle. Tipping that 26 m ski up that far reduces your turn radius to about 12 m. A 12 m turn at 2 gs will give you a speed of 55 kph. Far above the speed you would reach on steeps with good carving. This applies roughly to a hard surface. You can feel the difference if you go out and make some turns back to back with an old SG ski and any modern shapely ski.
 

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