slow skiing on steeps/carving

[tch]

Not sure how to word this question, but... how hard is it to keep carving as the steepness goes up? On eastern hardpack, I'm a champ at railroad tracks on blues and mild blacks, but as the steepness goes up, I find myself "brushing" or skidding my short turns to control speed. As I get older and more banged-up, I'm unwilling to carve big high-speed GS turns down steep blacks, so I find myself picking my way down the sides (on the better snow) and that's when the short turns start skidding.

So the question is: is this inevitable, or should I aspire to be able to carve short-turn RR tracks even on steep terrain?
And someone who has see good video of such turns is welcome to post video of same if possible.
THANKS.

 

[Dave Petersen]

Not sure how to word this question, but... how hard is it to keep carving as the steepness goes up? On eastern hardpack, I'm a champ at railroad tracks on blues and mild blacks, but as the steepness goes up, I find myself "brushing" or skidding my short turns to control speed. As I get older and more banged-up, I'm unwilling to carve big high-speed GS turns down steep blacks, so I find myself picking my way down the sides (on the better snow) and that's when the short turns start skidding.

So the question is: is this inevitable, or should I aspire to be able to carve short-turn RR tracks even on steep terrain?
And someone who has see good video of such turns is welcome to post video of same if possible.
THANKS.

I have the same issue and question. Can easily carve in the Midwest but when I get to steep terrain in the mountains I am brushing my turns. I think somewhere on epicski Helluvaskier gave me advice.

 

[Dakine]

Can't be done.
If you are making clean carved turns on a moderate grade you accelerate until you reach a speed limited by aero drag.
Straightlining without tucking isn't much faster.
When it gets steeper you have to add friction from the snow because aero drag limited speed is too fast.
If you have room you can reduce the effective grade by long traverses and carving back up the hill.
Even Ted has to throw in a stivot sometimes to slow down.

 

[François Pugh]

From my experience, unless you have enough room to turn uphill, you will keep gaining speed when making cleanly carved turns on a steep slope until you are going so fast that the only turns you can make are wider than your skis were designed for, unless you have DH or old-school SG skis. Then you will be making clean carved turns, but at SG or DH speeds, speed being limited mostly by aerodynamic drag.

 

[Dave Petersen]

Can't be done.
If you are making clean carved turns on a moderate grade you accelerate until you reach a speed limited by aero drag.
Straightlining without tucking isn't much faster.
When it gets steeper you have to add friction from the snow because aero drag limited speed is too fast.
If you have room you can reduce the effective grade by long traverses and carving back up the hill.
Even Ted has to throw in a stivot sometimes to slow down.

That's pretty much what Heluvaskier told me.

 

[Jamt]

Depends on the traverse. If you are on SLs and allow yourself to traverse more than 3-4 meters it is possible to carve most blacks. If you limit yourself to a few meters, like in an SL course, It is very difficult.
The key to speed control is dynamics, a lot of up and down acceleration with big angles. If you get stuck in a static position you are doomed.

 

[Jamt]

Depends on the traverse. If you are on SLs and allow yourself to traverse more than 3-4 meters it is possible to carve most blacks. If you limit yourself to a few meters, like in an SL course, It is very difficult.
The key to speed control is dynamics, a lot of up and down acceleration with big angles. If you get stuck in a static position you are doomed.

 

[ToddW]

OP,

It's doable but very few are willing to put in the years of focused training needed. Doing this on ice is the hallmark of a true expert skier.

 

[Read Blinn]

Depends on the snow, I think, and trail width. Trail width can get you. I once made a mistake on Liftline at Stowe that way — good self-arrest practice, though (and clearly I could have used more).

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

Although I am a Western skier, I have wondered this myself. Inevitably, if I am on steep terrain, I need to use more rotation than carving in order to have enough friction to ski slowly enough to feel in control. I am probably using the wrong terminology- basically I use less edge and more of the base of the ski. But I am not skiing ice.

 

[Tony S]

Depends on the traverse. If you are on SLs and allow yourself to traverse more than 3-4 meters it is possible to carve most blacks. If you limit yourself to a few meters, like in an SL course, It is very difficult.
The key to speed control is dynamics, a lot of up and down acceleration with big angles. If you get stuck in a static position you are doomed.

All this, PLUS you have to be mentally gutsy and physically strong. And there can't be any unguided missiles uphill from you.

 

[Read Blinn]

If you carve it, patience is the thing. Take it all the way across and uphill, retraction transition (I think), all the way back and up.

 

[jzmtl]

Thanks for the topic, I've been wondering the same thing. Problem with going uphill is, other than traffic, I've never seen any Eastern black trails that's wide enough to turn back up (maybe with those <11 meter consumer SL skis?).

 

[Tony S]

If you carve it, patience is the thing. Take it all the way across and uphill, retraction transition (I think), all the way back and up.

It's hard to be that patient when you're dropping like like a rock off a skyscraper.

 

[Johnny V.]

Yep, lots of variables. Skis (length,radius, bendability) slope width (and how much available), snow conditions and surface, skier ability and strength. If you've got the room this can be a good test of your ability to "ski the slow line fast"

 

[karlo]

should I aspire to be able to carve short-turn RR tracks even on steep terrain?

What does RR tracks mean to you in long turns? Is that a park-n-ride turn, and are you referring to a short turn variant of that? If so, I think it is hard to maintain speed and control in steeps. One is leaving oneself very little time in transition. Alternatively, one can perform a patient release that finishes the turn nearly across fall line, with assist from rotation, then patiently wait in transition for the equipment to pass under oneself as the body floats downhill before initiating the next turn very early (early in the turn, not in time). The early turn will facilitate slowness.

 

[Magi]

Not sure how to word this question, but... how hard is it to keep carving as the steepness goes up? ...
So the question is: is this inevitable, or should I aspire to be able to carve short-turn RR tracks even on steep terrain?

Assuming that by "short-turn RR track" you mean two clean lines in the snow throughout the turn and not going fast and faster till you hit terminal velocity?

It's hard but possible. Your precision in staying over/against the outside ski, tipping then steering the ski, and your upper/lower separation have to be spot on. You slow down by continuing the turn back up the hill instead of moving more snow.


Does this meet what you're asking for? If it doesn't - can you post a video of the kind of turn you're hoping to see?


While the above is a level 4 BASI video - anyone skiing at/above the level 3 standard set by PSIA/CSIA/BASI should be able to demonstrate (and teach) you how to do roughly what I think you're asking for.

I like this video for showing what's possible on a 21m 180cm long Rossi Masters GS ski: (which is what all the short turns are done with)


And here's one of an 8.5 meter corridor being skied on a 13m FIS SL ski:

 

[Monique]

OP,

It's doable but very few are willing to put in the years of focused training needed. Doing this on ice is the hallmark of a true expert skier.

And few people have the opportunity to do this safely, because no one wants you flying by at 50mph.

 

[Josh Matta]

carving? if you mean edge lock to edge lock SL skis and year s of training it will not be slow though. Just to point out the Dynamic skiing 'edging skills" video is not a edge lock to edge lock. Its quite a bit of stivot to a very dynamic but brushed carved. These type of turns can be used in most placed to make round turns at any speed you want to go. I would contend that his example is not "slow" though.

Personally I think your goals should be as carved as possible no matter what the speed and steepness.

 

[QueueCT]

Assuming that by "short-turn RR track" you mean two clean lines in the snow throughout the turn and not going fast and faster till you hit terminal velocity?

It's hard but possible. Your precision in staying over/against the outside ski, tipping then steering the ski, and your upper/lower separation have to be spot on. You slow down by continuing the turn back up the hill instead of moving more snow.


Does this meet what you're asking for? If it doesn't - can you post a video of the kind of turn you're hoping to see?


While the above is a level 4 BASI video - anyone skiing at/above the level 3 standard set by PSIA/CSIA/BASI should be able to demonstrate (and teach) you how to do roughly what I think you're asking for.

I like this video for showing what's possible on a 21m 180cm long Rossi Masters GS ski: (which is what all the short turns are done with)


And here's one of an 8.5 meter corridor being skied on a 13m FIS SL ski:

The 3rd video, I'd say, is what most people are thinking of. The edge angle is significant and it requires a fair amount of strength to accomplish. Very dynamic skiing but I'm not sure what pitch would keep speed under, say, 50mph.

The 2nd video, in my opinion, doesn't count. It's a valid turn type, and one I use, but the edges aren't engaging until the ski has turned past the fall line.