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James

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Tap the tips together on the chairlift. Gently.
You can tell a lot about the ski.
 

markojp

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Right there, you did it again. A stiffer ski with a slower rebound speed does all that - even though it might dissipate less energy per vibration cycle than the softer ski. Damping only tells you how much energy is lost per vibration cycle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_ratio



Proving my point yet again. Notice that the ski designers I linked to above do not call that characteristic "damping"


Notice:



and neither do careful ski reviewers. Blister, for example, refer to 'suspension' - with suspension speed, suspension travel and suspension damping being entirely separate quantities.


He said "Titanium"... ") Lots of semantics in number 2. I think most here would say dampen=absorbing shock... uh oh! Shock absorbers don't absorb anything! What now? :)

(But yes, the scientific definitions do clarfy... so when are people going to stop with using 'i bent my ski' and say, "I've exceeded the composite's modulus of elasticity"? )
 
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James

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He said "Titanium"... ")
Yeah plus going into the characteristics of titanium damping. Oy Vey.
As Swiss toni posted the patent, Titanal does actually contain a small amount of titanium. So small that the maker, AMAG, doesn’t even mention it on their public product marketing data sheet.
 

SSSdave

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Again not someone that has skied many different skis, however this season when I, a light 66" 132# skier began skiing on the 2020 Santa Ana 88's that has two thin Titanal layers, I was surprised by the nature of its balanced centered rebound instead of usual stiffness that metal historically has provided versus wood. Something a skier skilled at dynamically rebounding turn to turn can put to use developing a powerful balanced smoother consistent rhythm. Additionally that flex when I emphasized foot pressure through the center of a turn smoothed out surface uneveness in a way I've come to like and been able to count on instead of being loose, having to absorb. These are things I had gleaned from Tricia and Amy's reviews of the model so am aware they noticed it too.
 

Noodler

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You can do even better than 'ear' for the 0-100Hz range just by downloading one of the many NVH accelerometer apps to your phone and clamping it to the ski.

How cool is that? I had no idea that was available. I'll be installing that app later today and checking out my skis. Is there a particular app you recommend?

P.S. So these apps exist for automotive enthusiasts?
 

Choucas

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Does metal improve torsional rigidity?
Metal is isotropic meaning that it flexes the same in all directions. Usually this makes skis with metal stiffer in torsion, but you can gain torsional stiffness by other means (core materials and layup, direction of the fibers in the load bearing layers). Likewise, you can alter the metal laminates to change the torsion, i.e., contour mill them into different shapes, slit them, or mill them to varying thicknesses along the length of the layer.
 

cantunamunch

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How cool is that? I had no idea that was available. I'll be installing that app later today and checking out my skis. Is there a particular app you recommend?

Bosch's iNVH is nice for analytics but a PITA to export; I have a couple of other "sound analyzer" ones with easy-to-print graphing.

As you probably know, 0-100Hz is not ideal for skis since the rubbers have features of interest in the 100Hz - 200Hz range and fiberglass layups can make big differences above that. But, that's the best we can do with the phones we have - and it's not greatly affected by clamping method differences. Otherwise we'd be supergluing sensors to the topsheet.
 
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DB Cooper

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To bring this all back around, I’m still in the same place I was when I started this thread! Looking back at the date it was right around when the resorts in Utah closed. And with the way this year has started I have had no opportunities to get up on a pair of One Oh Somethings in anything resembling soft snow to try them out!

Still trying to match my enforcer 88s with a mid-100. Prospects are: QST 106, enforcer 104, atris, woodsman 108 (or 102?), and curious about the nomad and origin.

Still have no idea on metal or not.

I just need to it snow again to have a reason to demo!
 

AmyPJ

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To bring this all back around, I’m still in the same place I was when I started this thread! Looking back at the date it was right around when the resorts in Utah closed. And with the way this year has started I have had no opportunities to get up on a pair of One Oh Somethings in anything resembling soft snow to try them out!

Still trying to match my enforcer 88s with a mid-100. Prospects are: QST 106, enforcer 104, atris, woodsman 108 (or 102?), and curious about the nomad and origin.

Still have no idea on metal or not.

I just need to it snow again to have a reason to demo!
I hear you! This season in Utah is so depressing. My experience has been that untracked soft snow=metal, no metal, don’t care. The rubber meets the road when the snow is no longer untracked. Then I personally prefer a ski that absorbs more of the energy. Titanal helps. YMMV. I will say that last year’s Santa Ana 88 had two sheets of titanal and I LOVED IT. This year’s has one sheet and is not as smooth in crud but is a bit easier to make quick moves on. Compromises.
 

DanoT

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I was all set a few seasons ago to get the (metal) Nordica Enforcer 93 but then Head came out with the Kore 93 (non metal). Kore 93 is so light that one would think that it is wimpy but instead it is damp like a metal ski.

Kore 93 is stiffer than an Enforcer 93 but because of its light weigh the Kore 93 is easy to throw around and doesn't ski like a stiff ski.

My advice: don't pay very much attention to a ski's construction or form an opinion (other than figuring out a short list of what ski to demo) until after demoing.

Let the ski tell you which one to buy, not some random person on the internet.
 

jo3st3

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Depends on what your doing. Most skiers don’t require metal in their skis, they mostly just prefer it because they like the feeling of stability in certain conditions. As a skier builds more confidence, they can ski on just about anything. Also, the use of carbon in skis has come a long way and really change the feel of a ski without metal. And among metal laminates, there are different applications and thicknesses. It’s all relative.
 

Seldomski

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My guess is that the metal in skis makes them seem more damp by action of increasing their natural resonant frequency with higher stiffness to mass ratio. The shift to higher frequency makes the vibration less perceptible to the skier and the dampening features (viscoelastic) of the ski remove energy faster (higher velocity in the ski).

May be some nuggets of wisdom in this paper, I haven't looked at it in detail yet-

Funny enough, they talk about the little dampeners like the Volkl UVO buttons. I think the work may have been funded by someone trying to sell those buttons.
 

jo3st3

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To bring this all back around, I’m still in the same place I was when I started this thread! Looking back at the date it was right around when the resorts in Utah closed. And with the way this year has started I have had no opportunities to get up on a pair of One Oh Somethings in anything resembling soft snow to try them out!

Still trying to match my enforcer 88s with a mid-100. Prospects are: QST 106, enforcer 104, atris, woodsman 108 (or 102?), and curious about the nomad and origin.

Still have no idea on metal or not.

I just need to it snow again to have a reason to demo!

If you enjoy and can handle the enforcer 88, then the enforcer 104 will seem like a breeze and seems like a natural fit.
 

DanoT

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Funny enough, they talk about the little dampeners like the Völkl UVO buttons. I think the work may have been funded by someone trying to sell those buttons.

Some 20+ years ago I had a pair of Volkl Vertigo G31. It had an anti-vibration device in the form of a tuning fork shape, raised up as part of the top sheet, in front of the binding toe piece.

One day I am skiing with some friends and we come to lower 3 or 400' vertical and there must have been a freeze/thaw leaving ruts causing a noticeable vibration to me. I get to the lift ahead of everyone else and I wait, and I wait, and I wait. The others finally show up and what took them so long is that what I found to be noticeable vibrations, my friends who were not on Volkl Vertigo G31, absolutely struggled with the vibrations.

My point is that a lot of time the seemingly gimmicky stuff that the ski industry comes up with, actually works. And lots of times the average skier can't really articulate what is going on with the ski, only that it works for them.
 

Seldomski

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My point is that a lot of time the seemingly gimmicky stuff that the ski industry comes up with, actually works. And lots of times the average skier can't really articulate what is going on with the ski, only that it works for them.

Interesting story. In the paper they talk about something similar being used to dampen vibrations in aircraft panels, so this type of gadget has been used for other applications with success. I have rented skis with the UVO buttons and could hear noise from them in some cases. Hard for me to tell what they are doing exactly without a direct A/B comparison (ie with and without the buttons).

The paper also mentions that the boot/binding interface may have most of the dampening in the ski setup, so it may be hard for people to actually feel the dampening differences between skis.
 
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DB Cooper

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If you enjoy and can handle the enforcer 88, then the enforcer 104 will seem like a breeze and seems like a natural fit.
Love the 88s. I’m coming off a pair of the 93s, which I also loved. Switched to the 88s because I’m spending more time on piste with a 6 and a 4 year old and the 88s are fantastic on trail (not that the 93s weren’t, but the 88s are better).

i should probably not over think it and just go 104 which does seem like a natural fit.
 
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DB Cooper

DB Cooper

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I hear you! This season in Utah is so depressing. My experience has been that untracked soft snow=metal, no metal, don’t care. The rubber meets the road when the snow is no longer untracked. Then I personally prefer a ski that absorbs more of the energy. Titanal helps. YMMV. I will say that last year’s Santa Ana 88 had two sheets of titanal and I LOVED IT. This year’s has one sheet and is not as smooth in crud but is a bit easier to make quick moves on. Compromises.
My wife got a new pair of the Santa Ana 93s this year. She loves them!
 

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