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skiing stacked or with separation

Scruffy

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Not sure I get you. That first vid there certainly is little to no separation as for rotation of upper/lower body vs lower. Its all aligned. Its not the upper body remaining facing the fall line while rotating the lower underneath like you can see him doing in the two in the other vids.

Again, I think your terminology needs refinement. Upper lower separation is not limited to robotic skiing with the chest facing exactly down the fall line while legs work back and forth rotating underneath. Look at your first video again, at his skiing at about the 3:20 time mark and on. Specifically look at the still at 3:42 I cut and pasted below.

upload_2018-2-8_23-7-0.png
 

hbear

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Not sure how one can properly arc a ski without seperation.....seperation, shoulders forward and big pressure on the downhill/outside ski are the fundementals for racing.
You can "carve" by riding the sidecut, but that skier is going to have difficulty with ice or steeper terrain (where the lack of pressure on the downhill/outside ski will surely lead to sliding/smearing moevements and lack of grip)

Maybe I'm not understanding the definition, but seperation (independent feet) is fundemental.
 
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Goose

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Goose, your definition of stacking is for being "square". Skiing "square" or "squared up" is when the hips and skis are aligned in the same direction during transition. When we are square, there is no rotary or angulation (separation) happening but there is still vertical separation (flexion/extension). There is also no inclination while being "square" to the ski and "over" the ski when we are rotary and angular neutral in transition.

Separation, rotary and angulation specifically, are the primary movements we facilitate in order to achieve stacking against the returning forces that the ski creates.

Stack describes alignment on the lateral (side-to-side) plane

Square (and separation) describes rotation from the center line (belly button)

So yes, you can ski stack AND with separation of the upper/lowers body.

But you can’t be square and with upper/lower separation. It’s one or the other.

You need to correct you thread title.
Yes then my title of the thread is not quite right. I cant or don't know how to change it nor what id change it to. But now it seems we are on the same page with what I meant.
 
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Goose

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Again, I think your terminology needs refinement. Upper lower separation is not limited to robotic skiing with the chest facing exactly down the fall line while legs work back and forth rotating underneath. Look at your first video again, at his skiing at about the 3:20 time mark and on. Specifically look at the still at 3:42 I cut and pasted below.

View attachment 39229
yes as indicated lets forget what is perhaps the wrong terminology in my title.
But there is clearly two different forms we can take while skiing as indicated in the individual vids and for the different scenarios.
One form has the body (upper and lower) much more aligned (or square) with each other and to the direction of travel, while the other type has much more separation in terms of keeping the upper body facing much more down the fall line while from the hips down we are rotating (twisting) more separately from the upper.

In the vid you mention he is skiing with the upper and low body much more aligned (or square) with each other vs the other vids where he doesnt. Its basically his purpose of that video. While in other vids (for the given scenarios) he then skis with much greater amount of rotational separation between the upper and lower body. Those differences are significantly noticeable and discussed in the vids.

Two different forms of technique for the different scenarios and desires.
 
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Goose

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Not sure how one can properly arc a ski without seperation.....seperation, shoulders forward and big pressure on the downhill/outside ski are the fundementals for racing.
You can "carve" by riding the sidecut, but that skier is going to have difficulty with ice or steeper terrain (where the lack of pressure on the downhill/outside ski will surely lead to sliding/smearing moevements and lack of grip)

Maybe I'm not understanding the definition, but seperation (independent feet) is fundemental.
yes but your talking racing as a given scenario where rotational separation is needed.. Sort of like in his video/s where he uses that separation when talking about steeper and more demanding turns vs when he skis in the other videos much more aligned with far less rotational separation.
The different scenarios, conditions, and desires are dictating which technical form to take with him. One being a more squarely aligned upper and lower body technique while the other a much more upper/lower rotational separation technique. The two each fitting their own place/scenario based on conditions, and desired goal.
 

rcc55125

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It is not clear by some of the posts if they are saying the skier should be stacked and/or separated 100% of the time.
You ski into and out of each during every turn.
Maximum stacking is needed around the turn apex to react to the maximum forces of the turn.
Typically the skis are pointed down the fall line at the apex which should result in minimum separation; skis and body pointed down the fall line..
As the turn builds to transition so does separation. The skis are pointed across the fall line and the upper body faces more down the fall line.
Ron Kipp says separation should equal tip lead for basic turns. JF Beaulieu says point your belly button to the outside ski tip. For things like hop turns and pivot slips this would not be the case.
So in a coordinated turn the skier will use both stacking and separation.
One small point regarding separation, PSIA considers the pelvis part of the upper body. Everything from the femur socket down is the lower body. A good percentage of skiers who keep their chest and shoulders downhill are not truly separated (according to PSIA).

None of the above includes angulation, which you also want to have in every ski turn. You also ski into and out of angulation.
 

LiquidFeet

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As an advancing adult skier I used to wonder when the skier should face the trees at turn entry, and when facing downhill was better. Here's what I know now.

--If the skier enters a turn with the upper body facing downhill and the skis pointed to the side of the trail, the body will unwind by the time the skis are pointed down the hill. This unwinding is likely to turn the skis across the snow when they flatten. In other words, the body will rotate/pivot the skis at the top of the turn as it unwinds.

--If the skier enters a turn with the upper body and skis both facing the trees at the side of the trail, there will be less likelihood of the body manually pivoting/rotating the skis as they flatten; the body won't have to unwind. (To direct pressure to the outside ski the skier will need to angulate and counter some when the pressure is greatest at the fall line. There will also be a small amount of "passive" upper-body-lower-body separation during the turn that is created by one foot being higher than the other; the boot cuff blocks that higher inside foot from moving back level with the other foot, and the torso above aligns with the positions of the feet.)


The first turn entry, with skier facing downhill, will tend to create a short-ish turn with some skid.
The second turn entry, with skier facing the trees, allows a carved turn entry, if the skier knows how to initiate a carved turn.
 
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Goose

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It is not clear by some of the posts if they are saying the skier should be stacked and/or separated 100% of the time.
You ski into and out of each during every turn.
Maximum stacking is needed around the turn apex to react to the maximum forces of the turn.
Typically the skis are pointed down the fall line at the apex which should result in minimum separation; skis and body pointed down the fall line..
As the turn builds to transition so does separation. The skis are pointed across the fall line and the upper body faces more down the fall line.
Ron Kipp says separation should equal tip lead for basic turns. JF Beaulieu says point your belly button to the outside ski tip. For things like hop turns and pivot slips this would not be the case.
So in a coordinated turn the skier will use both stacking and separation.
One small point regarding separation, PSIA considers the pelvis part of the upper body. Everything from the femur socket down is the lower body. A good percentage of skiers who keep their chest and shoulders downhill are not truly separated (according to PSIA).

None of the above includes angulation, which you also want to have in every ski turn. You also ski into and out of angulation.

We cant use the term "stacked vs separation" when meaning to imply a upper and lower body more directionally aligned vs one with more rotational separation between upper/lower because as you see in the thread it has caused confusion. Many feel the term stacked is something we always need to be on the correct place on our ski/s regardless. But I can see how the term could also be used to describe the upper and lower body being more aligned or square with each other vs not (or vs when there is more rotational separation). But that's not sitting well with a number of people.

The upper body facing down the fall line is not always a must which is sort of one the points of the thread. We can ski both with a more directionally aligned whole body as seen in two of the four vids I posted. And we can also ski with much more of a rotational separation between upper and lower body where as now the chest always facing down the fall line. The former the chest (upper body) stays more aligned with the lower and the skis...hence the other two oif the four vids. The conditions , desired turns and scenario would dictate which technical from we use.

Imo skiing more aligned where the uppers are not down the fall line but more square to the lower while in the turn makes for somewhat wider carved turns. Where as skiing with our upper body down the fall line while rotating the lower allows for shorter, quicker, and more speed control on steeper slope where/when desired and also can incorporate some skidding which may or not be determined by all the factors and conditions.
 
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bmoose21

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I've never liked the term 'stacked' since it seems to mean different things to different people. This is not surprising since the human body isn't a pile of blocks and in fact can't be stacked at all. Some definitions focus on the amount of muscular effort required to remain balanced, however we always need muscular effort to remain on our feet. Liquid Feet's posts say seemed to say that skiing stacked is both not 'leaning in' or 'leaning back' and shows examples of hip angulation as stacked. However skiing with hip angulation can often require more physical or muscular effort through the hips than simply leaning in or banking around a turn -- so that seems at odds with the idea of reduced muscular effort. Other definitions seem to focus on fore aft balance, or the amount of knee bend and therefore quad effort required to maintain balance and handle the forces of the turn (interestingly these are not the same thing, fore aft balance can be achieved in both squatted bent knee positions and standing tall) The ski school elate media definition I think is pretty funny: 'Lining everything up... your skeleton, your ligaments, your muscles...' huh? How exactly do I line up my muscles and ligaments?
I prefer to avoid the term entirely and try to describe movements or relative positioning of body parts through the turn.
 

LiquidFeet

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Not sure I get you. That first vid there certainly is little to no separation as for rotation of upper/lower body vs lower. Its all aligned. Its not the upper body remaining facing the fall line while rotating the lower underneath like you can see him doing in the two in the other vids.

@Goose, these two stills below come from that first video.
--The jacket zipper is facing the camera, and the skis are pointing somewhere else. That is called "separation."
--If that separation were not there, the skier's jacket zipper would face the same direction as his skis. His upper body would turn left-right as his skis turn. He would be "square" to his skis.
--From your word usage and the posts of others, it seems that you are asking about when to ski "square" and when to ski with "separation."
--Have you found anything that answers your questions yet?
Screen Shot 2019-02-16 at 4.06.48 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-02-16 at 4.06.26 PM.png
 
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Goose

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I revisited this year old thread (or at least the thoughts of the topic) in my head while skiing one day last week. certainly "stacked" vs separation was the wrong word to use to describe what is better said as "square" vs separation.

As I was skiing both moderately (fairly easy goping) and then also much more aggressively on the different degrees of mediocre to steeper slopes I understand why stacked was the wrong word. We are always stacked placing the forces where it needs to be.

But there is a place imo where skiing square vs separating the upper/lower body does imo still make sense. And that is generally when on the more moderate slope angle and or with easier going somewhat wider turns. The steeper the slope, and the shorter the turning , the more counter force separation is required.

As per the 2 different vids. He is skiing much much more square in one and much more with body separation in the other.

Also is describing both although one is clear meant for a somewhat easier going type of skiing.

Either way of course our applied force is still placed outside ski dominant. But one way more than the other.

I just got back from a ski day today. And I was taking notice of the more advanced skiers to best on the slopes. There are definately those who were skiing more square and those skiing more separated. It all seem to depend on how steep, how fast, and the desired turn ratio and how quick the desired transition from turn to turn.
 

Rod9301

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Ok one place it seems there is confusion is that when I say separation I don't mean legs separated far apart from each other. I meant legs separation from the upper body as for aligning with the skis legas hips upper body all facing the same direction vs when letting the legs rotate while keeping the upper body down the fall line.

I tend to ski with all aligned on more moderate terrain and at slower speeds and also at turns a bit wider. When on steeper terrain and/or also desiring quicker turning and also controlling speed I then ski more with upper/lower body separation. Where as my upper is facing always down the fall line while the legs rotate under.

As for legs being separated (since it was mentioned) I tend to ski with legs a tad spread from each other. This may vary some but one the things I was told, read up on, and researched when switching from straight skis was that I needed to open the legs a little vs the old method. And fwiw also use more of the uphill ski than before as well. But this is all a different thing than what I referred to when I said stacked vs separation. I referred (as mentioned) more to the fact that upper/lower would align or be separated, not how far apart the legs are from each other.
1. Hips should be facing your outside ski, not down the fall line. They will be facing the fall line only at the end of the turn

2. If you ski with legs apart, you will have too much weight on the inside ski.
Look at pictures of top racers, they all ski with legs close together, it just looks like they are far apart because of the extreme edge angles
 

Rod9301

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Typically the skis are pointed down the fall line at the apex which should result in minimum separation; skis and body pointed down the fall line..
As the turn builds to transition so does separation. The skis are pointed across the fall line and the upper body faces more down the fall line.



Not true, hips should be facing the outside ski.

You should have a lot of upper lower body separation at Apex.
 

Doby Man

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I can see how the concept of stacking and separation may seem at odds with each other from the unacquainted perspective.

Separation is the mechanism we use to achieve being square and being stacking as well as the mobility we use to convert stacking from apex to apex and to covert being square from transition to transition. Even when we are “square” to the skis and all of the rotary, angulation and inclination are completely neutral, such as in transition, we are still using vertical “separation” through flexion and extension in the vertical plane of movement.

The five fundamental moves of separation are flexion, extension, rotation, angulation and inclination. Flexion and extension provide separation of the CoM and BoS in, primarily, the vertical (when upright) and, secondarily, in the lateral plane (when tipped). Rotary, of course, provides separate and differential rotary orientation of the CoM and BoS. Angulation and inclination provide separation in, primarily, the lateral plane and, secondarily, in the vertical plane.

Skiing is all about the relational displacement of the CoM and the BoS in all four planes of movement which is facilitated by the five fundamental movements of separation. Because being “stacked” or “square” can be considered as the outcome of separation, they are not comparable on the same scale of measurement, whatever that may be.

For me, the CoM and BoS are the two primary loci of control a skier has. When we limit our direct focus on the control of these two facets, the five movements of separation that occur between these two points happen as a result of these two distinct paths. These movements are not directly facilitated by skier intent and are merely movements that we can allow to happen on their own accord and the best way to produce natural movements that are inherent with the DIRT that comes from the ski.
 

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