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Skiing softer snow on aggressive carving skis

Mike King

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Skill comes in handy and all, but unless you are Obi Wan Kenobi, you won't be making the same high-g slalom turns in a foot of fresh that can be made on hard cord.
Depends on the density and depth of the snow. Heli skiing this year was really interesting -- the ski was bending so much I really wondered if it was going to fold and pressure management became the big issue!

Mike
 

Josh Matta

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Skill comes in handy and all, but unless you are Obi Wan Kenobi, you won't be making the same high-g slalom turns in a foot of fresh that can be made on hard cord.

super fat skis even make normal jedis able to make some pretty dynamic turns in powder, you dont have to be Obi Wan.
 
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TS
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You pretty much have to "carve" in the soft snow. In some ways I prefer it, but it has limitations and drawbacks. One is so much "snow" - corn/slush, can build up on the outside boot that the outside ski bogs down.

That's what it feels like is happening, and when I try to slarve, or use old straight ski parallel technique, it catches the outside edge of the new downhill tail - keeping me from rotating freely.

If you've learned to turn by pushing the right ski to go left, or you just lean in and rotate the skis, you're going to have a bad time. In other words, if you're technique relys on pushing to an edge, or a surface with low friction to lateral displacement, (hard snow and twisting the skis), it doesn't work well in 3-d snow.

Any tips on how to adapt to 3-d snow, or good YouTube links to digest? I've learned to carve on midwest and Winter Park corduroy and hard pack, where I'm basically leaning and letting the ski do a lot of the work. We get slush bogs late in the day in Michigan, but nothing as plentiful as what I've been seeing at Breck, where the entire face of a run is a few inches of loose snow, with mounds anywhere someone's recently turned. Back home, you just stay on edge and blast through them...

I appreciate peoples suggestions about taking a lesson, but I had to scrape to afford this trip at all (my first vacation in 6 years, so anyone that wants to say I should've saved up more can kindly skip that "Post Reply" button), so $250-1000 for a lesson just isn't going to happen, ESPECIALLY since Amtrak canceled my return train, and I have to use what little funds I have left beyond maybe the $55 to demo something from RMU later in the week, to get back to Detroit when the week's over. I know there are a ton of very skilled skiers on PugSki, so this is where I came seeking advice, because that's about what my budget allows.
 

river-z

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I realize you're looking for advice about technique but it might be just as useful, given your limited time, to get advice about where to ski - as in, which part of the mountain that has the conditions you like to ski.

So sometimes in the spring we talk about following the sun in order to find soft conditions, but you might want to think about how to not follow the sun (shade, north-facing, higher elevation) to do the opposite.
 

Magi

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Anyone got any tips on adapting a hard snow/ice carving style, to the softer snow (even on the groomers) out west?

@Mike King pretty much nailed what you need to do.

Stop juicing the tails at the bottom of the turn and ski more from the center of the ski through the whole turn. (If the tail won't release, you're probably balancing too far aft)
Do less tipping of the ski relative to the snow, and more angulating to tip the ski relative to you (with your legs) so you can slip/grip at will.

I'm not hearing you describe as a snow surface that's too soft to support the speeds/turns you're trying to create, I'm hearing you describe a skier that's on snow that's showing him the cheat he uses to carve at home is a cheat (albeit a highly effective one in the right condition).
 

John J

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I'd have to agree with pretty much everything that's been mentioned thus far. I'll just add a comment about your skis. The tail is squared off, which makes it much harder to release the edges and demands good technique. A ski with a tapered tail (rounded) is a whole lot more forgiving, and much easier to release. It certainly doesn't mean you can't steer or schmear your turns. Since the Magnums are the weapons you have at your disposal, be patient. My advice is, 1, make sure your shins are staying against the front of your boots. 2, Keep your belly button oriented towards the tip of your outside ski. 3, create good lateral balance by getting your upper body out over the outside ski and level your shoulders to the snow. 4, Don't rush your turns. Actually feel your feet come back under your center of mass and your skis return to flat BEFORE you start the next turn. This is good bio mechanics and will offer you the best position of balance prior to initiating your next turn. If you rush your turn and your feet aren't underneath you, your turn may be doomed before it begins, which will lead to a chain reaction of out of balance turns. 5, since I mentioned bio mechanics, be aware of your hands and arms. Keep them out in front of you. A good rule of thumb for recreational skiers is to have your hands as far apart about as long as your ski poles are. This will offer stability. An analogy that was taught to me is to think of an ice skater spinning. When the skater is spinning, where are their hands and arms? They're in tight to their body, right? So when they want to stop spinning, what are they doing with their hands and arms? They go out away from their body. This is to offer stability when trying to balance. This is the same type of stability we want when we are skiing. Otherwise, if are hands and arms are in too close to our body, there is a higher chance we will rotate our upper body and lose balance to one degree or another if we encounter more difficult snow or terrain conditions. Another good rule of thumb is, as your butt goes out, the shoulders come down, and your hands extend towards the tips of your skis, round off your back so you engage your core. The tips of your poles should be about even with the middle of your boots. If you're going to be trying this for the first time, it may feel a bit weird, because you're not used to doing it. It's ok to skip the pole plant while you are getting used to this new position. Just keep dragging those pole tips about even with the middle of your boots. When you are ready to add the pole plant back into your skiing, keep in mind that the action comes from your wrist. Don't over reach. Bio mechanically speaking, the wrist should be higher than your elbow when pole planting. I could probably go on and on, but if you choose to try these things, there is more than enough to think about. Since a lesson is out of the question, just keep in mind that if you choose to try these things, you may be adding new movement patterns to your skiing, that your body hasn't become used to yet. It is perfectly natural for it to feel like your skiing has taken a step or 2 backwards while learning new movement patterns or skills. Best of luck to you, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your trip.
 
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So sometimes in the spring we talk about following the sun in order to find soft conditions, but you might want to think about how to not follow the sun (shade, north-facing, higher elevation) to do the opposite.

Not a bad suggestion. I'll have to ask my sister (my local guide) which slopes at Breck are likely to stay shady and/or groomed later.

@Mike King pretty much nailed what you need to do.

Stop juicing the tails at the bottom of the turn and ski more from the center of the ski through the whole turn. (If the tail won't release, you're probably balancing too far aft)
Do less tipping of the ski relative to the snow, and more angulating to tip the ski relative to you (with your legs) so you can slip/grip at will.

I'm not hearing you describe as a snow surface that's too soft to support the speeds/turns you're trying to create, I'm hearing you describe a skier that's on snow that's showing him the cheat he uses to carve at home is a cheat (albeit a highly effective one in the right condition).

It's hard for me to call it a cheat, since I'm basically doing what all the instructional info on carving says to do, but it IS totally the wrong technique for the conditions. I'm trying to ski the skis more like I did my old straight skis, rather than carving like I would on corduroy. It makes things more manageable, but that's where I'm really catching edges. I'm definitely on my heels more than I'd like, so I'm making a conscious effort to try to prevent that.

TONS of good info (THANK YOU) and ...It is perfectly natural for it to feel like your skiing has taken a step or 2 backwards while learning new movement patterns or skills. Best of luck to you, and I hope you enjoy the rest of your trip.

DEFINITELY feeling the 2 steps backward already. I'm using techniques I haven't had to use since the 90s, and have NEVER used on a shaped ski before. I'm trying not to say anything about the tail shape making it harder, because of that whole adage about the indian or the arrow, but I'm sure that combined with all the technique stuff you mentioned, it's not helping...
 

KingGrump

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Try moving the binding forward. Will get you more balanced on the ski.
 

Mike King

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It's hard for me to call it a cheat, since I'm basically doing what all the instructional info on carving says to do, but it IS totally the wrong technique for the conditions. I'm trying to ski the skis more like I did my old straight skis, rather than carving like I would on corduroy. It makes things more manageable, but that's where I'm really catching edges. I'm definitely on my heels more than I'd like, so I'm making a conscious effort to try to prevent that.

3d snow is a ruthless critic of your technique. You may think you are "basically doing what all the instructional info on carving says to do" but your outcome in 3d snow is telling you that you are not accomplishing it. It is not the wrong technique for the conditions, it is the technique that allows you to ski the thick, manky snow with not only grace, but to absolutely have the ball of your life doing so. Skiing corn, or even a lot of slush is second only to skiing light powder.

The key to carving technique, and skiing dense snow, is to move with the ski. You mentioned earlier that you lean to turn. That is not moving with the skis. The key moves are to tip the skis with the lower leg and allow the feet to move away from the body, not to push the body inside the turn to create edge. When you start pushing on the ski, you cause it to travel sideways across the snow. You can get away with this on hard snow, as you eventually displace the ski far enough to create sufficient edge angle that the ski bites and pushes you across the hill. In denser soft snow, as you push the ski, particularly from an aft position, the outside edge can catch, which is what you were describing. Even if it doesn't catch, the greater resistance of the snow to displacement makes for a lot more effort and fatigue.

It is going to take a lot of time and effort to remake the movement patterns so that you can ski more efficiently on both hard snow and soft. And, sorry to say it, but you are unlikely to learn it from reading a bunch of stuff on the internet. You are going to need a coach who can provide feedback -- that is, to tell you when you were successful (and that's not likely to be what you feel initially was successful -- you are likely to recognize your old, inefficient patterns as success) and when you are not.

Mike
 

Doug Briggs

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...

It's hard for me to call it a cheat, since I'm basically doing what all the instructional info on carving says to do, but it IS totally the wrong technique for the conditions. I'm trying to ski the skis more like I did my old straight skis, rather than carving like I would on corduroy. It makes things more manageable, but that's where I'm really catching edges. I'm definitely on my heels more than I'd like, so I'm making a conscious effort to try to prevent that.

The snow I've been encountering off-piste at Breck is grippy under the few inches of fresh. Are your edges catching in the soft and/or loose scraped snow or in the hard surface below? If the latter, dull them from tip to tail, maybe especially the tails as you write that they seem to not want to release. A few light passes with a gummi at 45* to the base, a few more if needed. You aren't trying to bevel the skis with the gummi, just get rid of the Midwest sharpness.

There isn't a lot of north facing groomed at Breck. Most of the north faces are au-naturelle. If the natural north facing has melted and set up, it isn't going to be pleasant until it softens up again.
 
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The snow I've been encountering off-piste at Breck is grippy under the few inches of fresh. Are your edges catching in the soft and/or loose scraped snow or in the hard surface below?

Having felt the difference between today's snow, and yesterday's, I can be reasonably certain it's the former. It felt that way before today, but with the snow firmer and more packed today suddenly being so much more skiable with my midwest ice groomer skill level, it was so much more like what I'm used to. Bliss was really rough on me, but the snow there was a lot more like the loose scraped snow that was everywhere yesterday.
 

Magi

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To OP - most of this advice amounts to do more at the start/top of the turn and less at the bottom/end.

You can get away with this on hard snow, as you eventually displace the ski far enough to create sufficient edge angle that the ski bites and pushes you across the hill.

A small quibble with what is otherwise an excellent post from Mike:

Tipping the skis *relative to your body* (CoM) is what causes the ski to grip.

Hard snow punishes inclining to create edge angle *more* not less, because a harder surface requires more force to be directed "down" into the snow than out into the turn to cause the ski to bite, bend, and grip.

Soft snow allows the creation of a platform through tipping because you can sink in enough that the virtual "ground" becomes directly in line with the ski. It doesn't matter how high your edge angle is if you don't have any force pushing that edge *down* into the snow. Example taken to the extreme: Stand on one leg and hold your other leg up and out to the side - you will achieve a really high edge angle with the ski in the air - it will not move you anywhere.

Mike is correct that displacement of the ski(s) to create a high edge angle does generally lead to eventually having the ski bite late in the turn. That is because eventually pressure shifts to the outside ski, the slope changes the angle of the slope/ski/body system, and there's generally enough "extra" force/energy slopping around that the ski bites.
 

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