Skiing on fat skis. When are they too wide?

[kayco53]

We had demo days at our mountain a few weeks ago just before they closed. A small ski maker had their skis there and were good about letting us try everything. Was a mxed bag day with a lot of different types of snow out there. Skied a bunch all the same route. Had a pair of 115 wide skis I loved floated powder blew through crud and and not bad on a few icey spots. Great in everyway except I could feel my knees after one run on them. And think I had water on the the knee after that. Not sure about that as Drs got very busy with the virus hing so I stayed away. I'am 60 yrs old and ski a fair amount as I patrol but usually on 96 wide skis. Does this happen often? Another one of guys 6'4 and 260 liked them and didn't even notice but he has 80 lbs on me. So I know they are to wide for me. Are they only for young legs or big guys? Nobody in our crew skis that wide much.

 

[Jim Kenney]

There are many western skiers who ride 115mm skis on a daily basis, but many more just save them for powder days and use something like your 96mm skis for the other days.

 

[Andy Mink]

I can feel my knees on 100 under foot on groomers. It's not that many wider skis can't handle groomers but it is harder to get them up on edge and hold them there. 115 is, for me, way too wide for a daily driver, even in Tahoe. 90 and less for me and save the wide ones for snow you ski in, not on.

 

[Mike King]

Wide skis place a considerable amount of force on your knee. Watch this video for info. https://www.pugski.com/threads/ski-width-and-certification-exams.15647/post-365424

 

[Castle Dave]

How wide is too wide? My Sick Day 125s need at least 2 or 3 inches fresh to work at all and 6 inches to start being fun. In other words they are too wide most days. This past season at Apex I used Supernatural 100s (obviously 100 wide) and Blizzard Cochise (108 wide) about equally most of the time.

 

[raytseng]

It also has to do with the geometry with your leg length, which may explain why it's less of an issue for your 6'4" colleague.
An alternate test is if you just do some herringbones uphill; that is one technique that really exposes the differences and extra work for me, even if the edges are tuned and sharp.

But to answer your question, yes I believe the goto bigmtn/allmtn still is in the 95-100 range and what the patrol folks as well as the bigmtn team coaches take out. 105+ is a speciality ski.

 

[Cheizz]

A wide ski (i.e. roughly wider than your knee joint itself) is no problem in softer snow, where they sink in to a little bit. If the snow is really hard, wider skis become more of an issue for your knees. So wether or not a ski is too wide depends on the skier and on the snow conditions.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Minimizing your edge on wide skis is the solution.

 

[François Pugh]

I use the soft-snow test; If they sink in to their mid-line they are not too wide.

 

[François Pugh]

Minimizing your edge on wide skis is the solution.

That works too.

 

[Jilly]

Reason why my Atomic 95C's are for sale. Hurt my knees too much. Going to 82 or 84 instead. Need anything wider for some condition, I'll rent.

 

[Scruffy]

They go to Wide when he wants to ski powder; otherwise he takes his midfats, because he doesn't think they're too skinny or too wide.

 

[GregK]

As many here have mentioned, snow conditions are the critical factor in a ski being too wide or not especially if you have sensitive knees. Also find wide skis more revealing of boot fitting and ski tune issues as they will compound the extra effort of wider skis in the wrong conditions.

I find that if the snow is soft and the edges can easily dig into/get below the surface, then my 50 year old knees can easily daily a 105mm or less ski. If it’s firm all day, then I’d want something narrower for sure. I’d want at least several inches of fresh snow to pull out the 115mm plus skis like you demoed.

You kinda answered “are the conditions appropriate for skis this wide” with your “not bad on a few icy spots” comment as it must have been too firm for 115mm skis that day. Your friends might have also hit much different snow conditions on the same run with better tuned skis wearing tighter fitting boots so tough to compare.

Many of the design aspects of wider powder skis can be found in a more suitable width for conditions like you faced that day so you might have LOVED their narrower model. So don’t give up on wider skis just yet as you may have just have chosen too big of a tool for the job that day.

 

[cantunamunch]

As many here have mentioned, snow conditions are the critical factor in a ski being too wide or not especially if you have sensitive knees. Also find wide skis more revealing of boot fitting and ski tune issues as they will compound the extra effort of wider skis in the wrong conditions.

Finally

I find that if the snow is soft and the edges can easily dig into/get below the surface, then my 50 year old knees can easily daily a 105mm or less ski.

I'm still waiting for someone to mention the entire lever arm.

The discussion I'm referencing is, of course on MacPhail's blog here: https://skimoves.me/category/skis/

The obvious corollaries are:
Fully rockered skis have shorter lever arms for the same ski length so will be comparatively easier on knees.
Torsionally softer skis will have lower maximum torques so *might* be easier on knees - if the maximum is low enough.
5-point sidecut skis will have shorter lever arms for the same ski length so will be comparatively easier on knees.

 

[Andy Mink]

Where I noticed the "knee" thing was at Arizona Snowbowl in January. I brought Liberty Evolv 100 skis with me. I mean, how hard can snow in AZ be? Well, pretty hard. I had a great day with @kimberlin and @RobSN on some fairly firm and truly firm groomers. The skis are fantastic and can carve REALLY well on that snow but by the time the day ended my knees were aching.

Fast forward to The Gathering at the end of February. I skied the Elan Wingman 86 CTI all week. Granted, the conditions were softer but I still did get a lot groomer runs in over the course of the week. No knee issues. This was reinforced on our return to Reno and a day or two at Mt. Rose where there hadn't been any appreciable snow in over a month. I will err on the side of a bit too narrow rather than a bit too wide.

 

[fatbob]

There are many western skiers who ride 115mm skis on a daily basis, but many more just save them for powder days and use something like your 96mm skis for the other days.

This - I skied almost all my days this season on a 107mm ski bar a few days on SL skis. I think the fat skis = bad for knees schtick is a bit overblown in general. Clearly on firm hardpack you should be chosing a better tool for the job.

Re the above post on lever arm - compare that to a fatter 5 point rockered ski - lever arm may be much shorter in the fat ski but angle from tibia centre much wider - which is bigger impact.

 

[Mike King]

This - I skied almost all my days this season on a 107mm ski bar a few days on SL skis. I think the fat skis = bad for knees schtick is a bit overblown in general. Clearly on firm hardpack you should be chosing a better tool for the job.

Re the above post on lever arm - compare that to a fatter 5 point rockered ski - lever arm may be much shorter in the fat ski but angle from tibia centre much wider - which is bigger impact.

Well, perhaps some science might convince you otherwise.

 

[maverick2]

I think part of your knee sensitivity to the wider ski may be an age thing. I'm 6'2", 260#, and 57 y.o. 8 years ago I was skiing 112's as my daily driver for 25-30 days a year with no ill effects. Did that for about 3 years, and slowly noticed my knees beginning to ache after a day or two of hardpack skiing, so I got a pair of mid 80 width skis to compliment the 112's. The wider skis were still my daily driver, but the narrow skis came out whenever there was no soft snow to be had. That worked for another 3 years, but at the end of that 3 yr period noticed that my narrower skis were getting more snow time and the 112's less because of more frequent aching knees. Which led me to expanding my quiver again with a 100 mm ski 2 years ago. My knees are fine these days using the 100s as my daily driver (pretty much any condition) and now the 112s only come out to play if I've got 6+ inches of snow. Only thing that has changed in that 8 year period is the age of my knees.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I ski in CO. My daily drivers are 88mm, 184cm K2 Pinnacles and Fischer Ranger 98s in 188cm. These deal with everything quite well except deep powder and to some degree crusty conditions. I typically am off piste. I can get both of the DDs to carve on groomers, but the K2s do a lot better on the groomer when it is really firm.

Evaluate conditions, determine goals for the day, choose a ski.

 

[cantunamunch]

. Only thing that has changed in that 8 year period is the age of my knees.

When ya planning on changing boots?