Skiing inbounds with a beacon?

[Jeff N]

Well, mostly, yeah. But there are patrollers all over the mountain with gear, and depending on where it happens, they could be there pretty quick. I seem to remember that the Toilet Bowl avalanche in JH was seen by patrollers and the victim was found in less than 10 min ... he still died, but that is within a reasonable time to survive a (survivable) slide.

Yeah. Most inbounds slides aren't going to be massive, so chances are the actual digging out will be a fairly quick process once you are located. If you can get a patroller there in 10 minutes, you have a pretty decent shot at getting your face uncovered by 15.

In a tree well, you often have much longer.

Obviously skiing with a partner is advisable, but it makes sense to wear a beacon even if you are the only person in your group that has one- they can get patrol, patrol can roll up with a beacon, and they have a chance to get you. If you get buried without and patrol has to get a probe line together, you are screwed.

 

[alaskaskierdad]

So much cheaper than growing a new kid, though.

A bargain when you think of it that way.

 

[Xela]

Skied with a beacon today. Why not? From what I've heard, the Tahoe snowpack is giving people the creeps right now.

 

[AaronFM]

Thanks all for the lively discussion. Seems the consensus is tilting toward skiing with a beacon, so with snow in the forecast I forked out $1200 so the whole family will be beeping across the Alps. Ouch!!, but better safe than sorry in my book. Guess I'll have to dial back the beer budget. We also hired a guide for several days per the suggestions here. I'll let you know how it goes.

Guides had loaner beacons when I was in Chamonix 2 weeks ago.

 

[alaskaskierdad]

Wanted to follow up to this post now that I am back from St. Anton. Here are some random thoughts:

Based on an informal survey during après ski, as well as an unscientific test of switching my beacon to search every time I rode the gondola, about 30% of inbounds skiers in Europe are wearing beacons everyday. I assume that number goes up when you only include off-piste skiers. Additionally, there were a surprising number of airbags being worn inbounds, and they are near universal off-piste.

Many, if not most European skiers never leave the groomed pistes. It was easy to ski fresh tracks several days after a storm if you knew where to go. Which leads me to . . .

It's worth it to hire a guide for at least a day, especially if you want to ski off-trail. The resort is so massive that it pays to have someone who knows where to get the goods. Further, it takes some of the guesswork out of snow safety decisions, especially if like me you have limited backcountry/avy experience. Guides/ski schools are all independent and unaffiliated with the resort beyond using their terrain. We had around 8 choices in St. Anton and used the Arlberg Ski Schule as recommended by our hotel and had a great experience. It was worth it if for nothing else getting a taste of the Austrian approach and style of skiing. All guide services will provide you with a beacon, probe and shovel included in the price. Airbags where extra $$$$, but available.

St. Anton and I assume similar European resorts have a very different approach to inbounds avalanche control than we have come to expect in the US.. As explained by our guide, they do avy control on and above named marked trails. Beyond that you are on your own. In a resort the size of St. Anton that leaves a significant amount of inbounds terrain that is uncontrolled.

At the top of the major lifts is a "free ride" board with updated avalanche information as well as a box that tells you if your beacon is transmitting.

Ski patrol is almost non-existent and what patrollers there are were on snowmobiles. If you have to be evacuated they will send you a bill. Slope evacuation insurance is available with your lift ticket for about 5 euros/day. Since lift tickets are only 55 euros, this is a pretty good deal.

St. Anton is massive. We skied hard for six days and maybe only skied 1/3 of the terrain. Stuben was my favorite area as it was less crowded and had that old-world feel in the village.

après is far superior to anything we have in the US. The Mooserwirt and Krazy Kangaruh should not be missed if only for the people watching. Just make sure you stay sober enough to ski down.

Conclusion:

I ended up buying beacons for the whole family and lugged a backpack with probe and shovel for our whole vacation. As a parent of little groms who love to ski off trail I was glad for the added measure of security and the relative inconvenience seemed a small price to pay. In fact, I really can't find a downside to wearing a beacon all the time inbounds and this will be my policy for our family going forward. I realize more than ever that my snow safety knowledge is pretty limited and plan to take steps to be better prepared for our next trip.

Thanks for all the input everybody. I enjoyed the discussion. Here are a few pics:

 

[Tico]

I was wondering how often you practice with beacon/shovel/probe, and what sort of avy education you've been through. No judgment or anything, just a professional curiousity.

 

[Monique]

I was wondering how often you practice with beacon/shovel/probe, and what sort of avy education you've been through. No judgment or anything, just a professional curiousity.

On a related note, what kinds of things did you explain to your kids / expect from your kids, and what sorts of stuff did you leave out? Like - are you putting beacons on them, with no expectation they would know how to use them to search, but at least you might be able to find them?

 

[Tico]

I actually see that a lot. Sometimes the parent is carrying multiple probes and shovels. But the problem is, the person with all the gear is invariably going first.

 

[alaskaskierdad]

I was wondering how often you practice with beacon/shovel/probe, and what sort of avy education you've been through. No judgment or anything, just a professional curiousity.

No formal training as ski almost exclusively inbounds. Before our trip I watched several videos from the beacon manufacturer (Mammut) and practiced with the whole family in our yard and in the beacon park at our home mountain (Alyeska). This was all done on a very short time frame as I only decided to get beacons at the last minute based on the discussion in this thread.

All of our skiing in Europe was inbounds and our extended off-piste adventures were with a licensed local guide. The guide did a fairly detailed briefing at the beginning of the trip. I wouldn't have felt comfortable venturing too far off the beaten path without a guide, but there were certainly plenty of people who seemed fine to ski without one. I can only assume that at least some of them were similarly inexperienced. Ultimately, this was a subjective personal choice based on my level of risk tolerance and colored by the fact I was traveling with kids. Others with similar backgrounds may have been just fine skiing in to the dark corners of the resort on their own.

I don't know the exact probabilities, but I would guess our risk of being in a car accident on the way to the resort was probably greater than our risk of being caught in an inbounds avalanche. However, since my kids were along, I was glad to have additional piece of mind. No doubt I need to get more training if I want to do more of this type of skiing in the future.

 

[alaskaskierdad]

I actually see that a lot. Sometimes the parent is carrying multiple probes and shovels. But the problem is, the person with all the gear is invariably going first.

We had 4 adults (1guide) with probes and shovels and 2 kids with only beacons in our group. We always kept at least one adult ahead of and behind the kids.

 

[alaskaskierdad]

On a related note, what kinds of things did you explain to your kids / expect from your kids, and what sorts of stuff did you leave out? Like - are you putting beacons on them, with no expectation they would know how to use them to search, but at least you might be able to find them?

My kids were first introduced snow safety/avalanche awareness by attending a rescue dog demonstration put on by our local ski patrol. We have gone to several of these since and I think it is a very benign way to introduce kids to some of the risks and dangers of the sport we all love. Before our trip we talked with the kids about why we were all wearing beacons. I used the analogy of wearing a seatbelt in a car even though it's unlikely we will get in an accident. As a family we all practiced using our beacons and the kids thought it was fun and have had fun showing the beacons to their friends and teaching them how to search.

 

[Tico]

That all sounds very reasonable. If you do take an L1 with Alaska avalanche school, try to get on one with Joe Stock. Oddly enough he's the only IFMGA guide in AK.

 

[4ster]

I think this was mentioned but I will repeat. With more & more people wearing transceivers inbounds there is a concern that in the event of an incident, there would be many of us in send mode than just the possible victims. We should all be aware that we need to turn our beacons to receive mode or off if we are not involved in the search. Also turn off phones & other electronic devices.

Personally, I will wear mine any day patrol finds it necessary to perform avalanche mitigation work. At times, if I am only skiing inbounds runs I am guilty of going without shovel, probe etc.

 

[DanoT]

I have skied enough powder in my life that I am not interested in risking my life to get more, hence I am not a back country skier. I consider the inbounds risk of an avalanche in North America to be low enough to not carry avy gear.

On a slightly different topic, I have noticed while skiing several US resorts that a lot of patrol wear vests but not backpacks. How much gear to they actually carry with them in a vest? I assume that if they are the first at an accident scene, they make an assessment and then call for a toboggan with more first aid equipment or a patrol stationed at a patrol hut with a well equipped back pack. This could delay treatment as opposed to skiing with a well equipped backpack at all times.

 

[Josh Matta]

I have skied enough powder in my life that I am not interested in risking my life to get more, hence I am not a back country skier. I consider the inbounds risk of an avalanche in North America to be low enough to not carry avy gear.

On a slightly different topic, I have noticed while skiing several US resorts that a lot of patrol wear vests but not backpacks. How much gear to they actually carry with them in a vest? I assume that if they are the first at an accident scene, they make an assessment and then call for a toboggan with more first aid equipment or a patrol stationed at a patrol hut with a well equipped back pack. This could delay treatment as opposed to skiing with a well equipped backpack at all times.

well first if you have beacon why not use it?

Second the patrol vest at western resort carry a complete avy kit all the time. They have beacon on them for sure.

Skied enough powder, spoken like someone who does not like to walk up hill to gain vertical.

 

[DanoT]

well first if you have beacon why not use it?

Second the patrol vest at western resort carry a complete avy kit all the time. They have beacon on them for sure.

Skied enough powder, spoken like someone who does not like to walk up hill to gain vertical.

I guess shovels are small enough to fit in a vest but there would be little additional room for a full first aid kit.

I don't really like hiking in ski boots but my home mountain does have a hike to area that was side country for decades but is now hike to inbounds with no need for avy gear as it is a very stable snow pack once people start skiing the runs out there. Nowadays, because it is inbounds, the patrol toss charges out there in the early season but are only able to get some sloughing in one spot.

 

[pais alto]

On a slightly different topic, I have noticed while skiing several US resorts that a lot of patrol wear vests but not backpacks. How much gear to they actually carry with them in a vest? I assume that if they are the first at an accident scene, they make an assessment and then call for a toboggan with more first aid equipment or a patrol stationed at a patrol hut with a well equipped back pack. This could delay treatment as opposed to skiing with a well equipped backpack at all times.

Where I work the "trauma packs" and advanced airway management packs weigh close to 40 pounds and have things like AEDs, saline, IV starter kits, oxygen, advanced airways and ventilation bags, ventilators, nebulizers with Albuterol and Ipitroprium, dressings, burn materials, extensive meds, large splints, and suction units. It wouldn't be effective for all patrollers to carry all that in a pack all the time. The packs are positioned where they can be delivered to anywhere on the mountain in less than 10 minutes, and we keep patrollers standing by with them at the shacks at all times. Also large bone splints, backboards, and other large supplies and rescue equipment.

In my vest, as well as the others where I work (though a couple carry this in a small pack), we carry things judged to provide immediate on-scene lifesaving measures - airway, bleeding, circulation - simple airways (OPAs, NPAs), CPR blob masks, nitrile gloves, glucose, other meds (from aspirin and epinephrine to narcotics), trauma shears, abdominal pads, gauze, Kerlix, bio-occlusive dressings, biohazard bags, tape, flashlight, triangle cravats, gauze pads, band-aids, Celox, tourniquet, stethoscope, a tampon, tongue depressors, eye pads, wipes. medical guide, space blanket, whistle, forms, maps, pliers, pens, lighter, zip ties, fence wire, flagging, radio, 150 ft of 7mm climbing rope, 12 ft of 1" tubular webbing, slings, prusiks, a descender/belay device, some carabiners, climbing harness, beacon and some stuff I've probably forgotten like my cheater glasses.

It's not just medical response, we have avy, chair evacuation, and cliff responses. My vest weighs over 15 pounds, and life-saving treatment is the first priority. Is there something missing that you think would be valuable and effective to carry? For airways, it's impractical to carry advanced airways (Kings/LMAs), bag ventilators, O2, and suction with us. For bleeding, we carry enough supplies to last until the trauma pack gets there. For circulation, we have BLS/ALS CPR and we aren't going to carry AEDs. And we carry meds for immediate issues like MIs, Anaphylaxis, and overdose.

Vests can be easier to manage - they don't get caught on chairlifts, the pockets are quickly accessed, the load is more evenly distributed, they don't get in the way as much when you're working, and they don't slide down the hill because you take them off and set them down.

Edit: The rope and stuff is for rappelling out of a broken down chairlift to work on evacuation, or rapping down a cliff to stabilize someone stuck midway.

 

[Monique]

Ski patrol also has a lot of safety duties unrelated to medical treatment. I am talking out my ass here, as I don't really know what policies are, but I assume that when ski patrol is bombing hike-to terrain, attempting to break down cornices, etc, a big heavy pack filled with medical gear would make things worse, not better. But I stand in awe of them for dragging sleds up the peak 6 and peak 8 hikes - places where the steep bootpack always gives me pause.

 

[pais alto]

Ski patrol also has a lot of safety duties unrelated to medical treatment. I am talking out my ass here, as I don't really know what policies are, but I assume that when ski patrol is bombing hike-to terrain, attempting to break down cornices, etc, a big heavy pack filled with medical gear would make things worse, not better.

Correctamundo. Also mundane things like fences, ropes, digging out pads, taxi rides, etc.

 

[DanoT]

pais alto, that is an impressive amount of gear that you carry in that vest. Thanks for the info.