• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,387
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
Not the intention of my reply, but I can see why it comes across as such. You do have a point though. There is a big ego culture amongst ski instructors here in Europe and definitely in Austria, especially in the more touristic places. Trying to look cool/be cool is really a thing. Is this less of a 'problem' in the US?

Austria also has a system with multiple levels and I was aware of this being the case in America/Canada as well.

I don't think what I would ski on is very relevant, but yes, I would definitely ski a gs ski and maybe a cheater gs if it's with a guest.

On a sidenote. If subjects like this cannot be discussed without it becoming an ego thing we can just leave at that. I did not want to cause any trouble.
What you don't understand is that this subject (skinny vs wide skis) is a subject that is guaranteed to pose a debate. You just stumbled into a subject without understanding the cultural implications of it, so don't take any of the commentary too seriously.

BTW, the guest centered teaching model, client motivations and objectives, and equipment (e.g. wide versus skinny skis) was the subject of the PSIA presentation at Interski in 2013. There was a technical on-snow presentation on wide skis in particular at that conference.

Mike
 

fatbob

Not responding
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,330
Sorry for the ego accusation. But saying you would ski a GS ski anywhere - I can't imagine an instructor in Squaw or Whistler or Jackson saying that unless they intended to stick solely to groomers although many could. It would be counter productive energy wise to try to battle 30cm of Sierra cement on GS skis which are essentially a one trick pony.
 

Skitechniek

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Jun 10, 2019
Posts
281
Location
Europe
@Mike King
It is okay, I will just leave it at that then. Thanks for the input everyone.

I am very curious about the 'guest centered teaching model' though. Where can I find this presentation?

And is this true:
I've also read that in some areas in the US and Canada they are really concerned about delivering the right instructor for the right client. As in, they are trying to create the perfect match. Is this true?
This concept is completely unknown to European skischools.
I would love to hear more on this if it is true. How do you create such a match for example?
 
Last edited:

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,678
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
Conditions do vary across Canada; it is about 6500 km from coast to coast. To drive from Mt. Washington BC ski resort to White Hills ski resort in Newfoundland would be a trip of over 7000 km. That is more than three times driving from Amsterdan to Bucharest.

https://www.google.ca/maps/dir/WHIT...1280bf9d4!2m2!1d-125.2963888!2d49.7530555!3e0

When I was young I traveled often to the west of our country to ski. Later, family pressures and expenses limited my time out west.
Where I now live a fat ski would be used once or twice a year, so I don't have a pair. But if I lived near Mt. Washington, I certainly would one a pair or more.

It's not that I NEED a pair of fat skis to ski deep snow in tight trees; I skied everywhere on 208 cm Super-G racing skis for many years. It's that I WANT a pair of fat skis to ski deep snow in tight trees. It is so much more fun. Why would you drive a dump truck on a twisty mountain road (with speed limits temporarily lifted), when you could ride this
GSX_R750L8_AV4_R_0.jpg

Horses for courses.
 

fatbob

Not responding
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,330
I'll let others answer the matching question as a I'm highly sceptical it really works for most walk ins. Euro ski teaching has its distinct advantages in that most visitors can access consistent daily group lessons with a single instructor at an affordable price over the course of a week. In the US the pattern of ski vacations doesn't allow for that.

So I think a Euro instructor over a week's worth of lessons has a more meaningful chance to improve a guest's skiing forever than a series of one hit wonder instructors in the US. But then they also have to be able to answer the "make me better" request with something that is real and personal to each guest rather than by rote.
 
Last edited:

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,723
Location
New England
@Skitechniek, there are some fundamental differences between between how ski schools in America and Austria work that may be impacting our conversation in this thread. Someone has already mentioned that most American skiers do not watch ski racing, either on TV or at the mountain. That matters. But the ski school differences matter as well.

Student-Centered Teaching (no national progressions, no agreed-upon levels of student skiing skills)
--In the US, the professional organization that certifies instructors is PSIA. Instructors can earn three levels of certification through PSIA, Level I, II, and III. Those levels represent increasing levels of skiing and teaching ability.
--However, PSIA's certification exams do NOT require that instructors teach a specific way, or follow particular progressions when they teach. PSIA encourages instructors to teach students in whatever way they think will give the client what they want. This is student-centered teaching. Someone upthread has mentioned this.
--For this reason there is no general progression of skills all students go through, moving from one level to another, that all ski schools understand and affirm. Students do not graduate from one nationally recognized skiing level before going on to the next.
--An adult student can get taught to do very different things from one instructor to the next. An adult taking lessons at different times and at different mountains can experience inconsistency from instructor to instructor and from ski school to ski school.
--So yes, the line-up boss at a ski school will try to match a student to an instructor. They try to know the interests and strengths of each instructor. This matters since there is no required progression to be taught.
--Many American recreational skiers don't take lessons after they learn enough to ski blue trails. "Why would I take a lesson? I already know how to ski!" is something one might hear. They perceive that skill level is correlated with the terrain they ski. So if they ski "advanced" or "expert" terrain, then they assume they are advanced or expert skiers. Many also assume that if they ski fast on groomers, then they are experts. They do not know there are nuances in ski performance. Most don't see it and they don't feel it.

Ski Area Monopoly on ski instruction; no competition among ski schools; low pay for ski instructors

--A ski resort has exclusive right to teach on its terrain. That means all ski instructors at a mountain work for the one ski school that belongs to the business running the ski operation there. There is little to no competition between ski schools. Each mountain has a monopoly on instruction. This has an enormous impact on who chooses to teach, and how much they get paid.
--Making a living as a full-time ski instructor is very difficult here in America. The pay is notoriously low. The ski school takes a huge amount of the price of the lesson. The instructors get little of that price. Sometimes instructors get tips to supplement their low rate of pay.
--Ski instructors can work part-time or full-time. In the east, many are part-time, working only on weekends. One might call them "hobby" instructors.
--An instructor working for a resort's ski school does not have to be certified at any level. Some are, some aren't. Adult students don't know much about PSIA or its certification structure. They don't usually know if their instructor is uncertified, or Level I, II, or III. They don't ask, and they are not told.
--Some ski instructors take the job because they are simply interested in getting a season pass and a locker in the locker room and free training. They may be retirees, or high school students just graduated looking for a fun way to bridge the gap to college, or they may be gainfully employed elsewhere but passionate about skiing. Many in the east take the part-time job because of the perks, which may include season passes for their family.
 
Last edited:

markojp

mtn rep for the gear on my feet
Industry Insider
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,632
Location
PNW aka SEA
Speaking only for myself, ski width's largest influence is on tactical choices (including Josh's mention of ski width/float/safety in low snow off piste trees and brush). More power to those who can pass on 140 reverse sidecut skis or completely rip high speed wide open off piste deep turns on FIS SL's.

(Skiteck, realize too that even though this is in the 'instructors' forum, many posting here aren't and don't. There's also a good deal of animosity toward instructors of all stripes, at all levels, in all subjects in the US. We are not a nation of learners. We're more a nation of 'go figure it out yourself, and the paycheck will be the judge of your success' types.)
 
Last edited:
Thread Starter
TS
geepers

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,291
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
Which is why examiners expect you to ski a skinny ski when doing an instructor course, examiners perceive doing the exams on wide ski's as being too easy.

Interestingly the presentation/graph in the original post implies that narrow skis are more suited for the tasks required to gain certification to L2 and 3 in PSIA. Based on experience I'd say that a wide ski wouldn't matter much for CSIA L1 and 2 but would add to the degree of difficulty passing CSIA L3 and likely L4 (I've not looked into the required ski tasks for that level).

That European perspective may depend on the ski tasks on which the assessment is based.

If I look at American/Canadian instructors/instructor courses however, I see a lot of wide ski's on YT. I find that an interesting feat, based on what I am used to.

Not so sure about students in those YTs however over the last three seasons of courses I've skied with quite a few CSIA L4s in western Canada. All but one skied predominantly sub-80 skis regardless of snow conditions - the one exception was a visiting L4 from Ontario who was on mid-80s. (Some-one told me that there were only around 150 active L4s in Canada so my sample would be around 10%.) It's a similar story with most of the CSIA L3 instructors I've met. Nearly always use narrow skis.

I've seen an occasional YT of high level instructors on fat skis but by far the majority are on narrows.

BTW interesting posts.
 

Lady_Salina

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
424
Smooth skiing Josh, and wow conditions for April.

I would add to this that in CSIA they often tease about needing a narrow ski for the course, but seriously they would expect someone to be on the best tool they have for the conditions. They often look at me when I show up for session on my 98's and say we are doing dynamic Short radius and I smile and say I got this. If it's extremely icy I'll wear my narrow carver, it's just a rare occurrence in the West. I spend a great deal of time teaching how to ski off piste at Whistler, it is often the clients goal. Also many clients are requesting how to ski powder and the steeps, I want them on a similar ski to my own for that. A wider ski is far more stable in the steeps and the powder. My best tool for those lessons is definitely my wider ski. it would be sad if they were on a wide ski and i showed up on my 68 mm slalom ski. If i have to go for race training or teach race techniques to someone, I switch to a race ski. I have a park/powder ski 94 under foot twin tip I always use for level 1 to 3 skiers (beginner to linked snow plow on easy green slopes) as they slide nice and i ski back wards on them. They are a great teaching tool and far less likely to catch and edge and cause an injury when working with a beginner or young children where I am skiing backwards so I can speak to them and coach them through their learning.
I have never had someone giving me a session blame my ski (my boot maybe for an issue) but not the ski. I often have had to take my narrow slalom to the steeps when a planned session ended up changing course and becoming a steeps, off piste and tree thing. It really worries me on some of those steeps that it will catch a sudden edge as the consequences can be high, and it does sink too much in the powder in the trees but, yes, i can get along with it and those with me don't notice my lack of comfort, but I feel way more confident and comfortable on my longer wider Great Joy. When in the east I do not ski a wide ski to teach, usually a cheater GS works in most conditions or a slalom as the hills are so short, so i can make every turn count. Again, the right tool for the job at hand is my opinion. If someone is showing up for their level 1 CSIA and we are going to be skiing groomers and make short turns, it is probably not optimum to show up on a 120mm under foot, 190 cm stiff powder board, but, if they can make it turn and show foot steering, round turn shape with speed consistency, they would pass. It would just typically be very difficult for that level of skier to show the turn shape and grip needed to pass with that ski. A narrower ski at a Level 1 ability is typically easier to perform an intermediate parallel turn *skidding to grip and round turn shape needed to maintain a consistent speed on an intermediate slope*. A very long stiff 120mm under foot 190 cm ski would possibly hamper a person of level 1 CSIA ability to demonstrate the snow plow, exercises and intermediate parallel turn. A higher level skier would have less problem managing to demonstrate on any ski.
 

Skitechniek

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Jun 10, 2019
Posts
281
Location
Europe
@Skitechniek, there are some fundamental differences between between how ski schools in America and Austria work that may be impacting our conversation in this thread. Someone has already mentioned that most American skiers do not watch ski racing, either on TV or at the mountain. That matters. But the ski school differences matter as well.

Student-Centered Teaching (no national progressions, no agreed-upon levels of student skiing skills)
--In the US, the professional organization that certifies instructors is PSIA. Instructors can earn three levels of certification through PSIA, Level I, II, and III. Those levels represent increasing levels of skiing and teaching ability.
--However, PSIA's certification exams do NOT require that instructors teach a specific way, or follow particular progressions when they teach. PSIA encourages instructors to teach students in whatever way they think will give the client what they want. This is student-centered teaching. Someone upthread has mentioned this.
--For this reason there is no general progression of skills all students go through, moving from one level to another, that all ski schools understand and affirm. Students do not graduate from one nationally recognized skiing level before going on to the next.
--An adult student can get taught to do very different things from one instructor to the next. An adult taking lessons at different times and at different mountains can experience inconsistency from instructor to instructor and from ski school to ski school.
--So yes, the line-up boss at a ski school will try to match a student to an instructor. They try to know the interests and strengths of each instructor. This matters since there is no required progression to be taught.
--Many American recreational skiers don't take lessons after they learn enough to ski blue trails. "Why would I take a lesson? I already know how to ski!" is something one might hear. They perceive that skill level is correlated with the terrain they ski. So if they ski "advanced" or "expert" terrain, then they assume they are advanced or expert skiers. Many also assume that if they ski fast on groomers, then they are experts. They do not know there are nuances in ski performance. Most don't see it and they don't feel it.

Ski Area Monopoly on ski instruction; no competition among ski schools; low pay for ski instructors

--A ski resort has exclusive right to teach on its terrain. That means all ski instructors at a mountain work for the one ski school that belongs to the business running the ski operation there. There is little to no competition between ski schools. Each mountain has a monopoly on instruction. This has an enormous impact on who chooses to teach, and how much they get paid.
--Making a living as a full-time ski instructor is very difficult here in America. The pay is notoriously low. The ski school takes a huge amount of the price of the lesson. The instructors get little of that price. Sometimes instructors get tips to supplement their low rate of pay.
--Ski instructors can work part-time or full-time. In the east, many are part-time, working only on weekends. One might call them "hobby" instructors.
--An instructor working for a resort's ski school does not have to be certified at any level. Some are, some aren't. Adult students don't know much about PSIA or its certification structure. They don't usually know if their instructor is uncertified, or Level I, II, or III. They don't ask, and they are not told.
--Some ski instructors take the job because they are simply interested in getting a season pass and a locker in the locker room and free training. They may be retirees, or high school students just graduated looking for a fun way to bridge the gap to college, or they may be gainfully employed elsewhere but passionate about skiing. Many in the east take the part-time job because of the perks, which may include season passes for their family.
Very Interesting. I'll tell something about the Austrian and some other European systems for comparison, because there are definitely some distinct differences.
In Austria you are basically taught how to teach when doing an instructor course. When you do your L1 (Anwarter) e.g., you learn how to teach a beginner. The L1 cours then teaches you the basics of skiing and how to teach those basics to beginners. You really get an A-Z plan with progressions. This means what you'll learn in a skischool is pretty much the same everywhere. It really doesn't matter that much where you learn how to ski, because you'll probably hear the same things. The Austrian system (and all European systems in general) is really focused on upper body position, hence the main thing you will learn is moving your upper body towards the outside ski. The other points you will learn is getting into centered stance (although most instructors will probably say lean forward), hands forward and releasing the ski by extending your legs and moving you CoM forward to get the ski's pointing in the fall line again. This is basically the focus of almost every lesson. These points are pretty much the same everywhere in the whole of Europe. That is probaby why matching a teacher to a client does not exist in Europe. Only in privates the lesson will be tailored to what the clients wants.

Same culture exists in Europe, after a while people stop taking lessons. Mostly kids or beginner adults take lessons in skischools.

That is really really different, here in Europe there is a couple of skischools on every mountain. I think it is even forbidden by EU law to now allow any competition.

In Europe you will not get rich from ski teaching either, but you can make a living out of it. Most ski teachers are high school/uni students who take a gap year or are studying something sports oriented. You hardly see any retirees to be honest.

In Europe you have to be certified, but in Austria there are ski schools who do not care that much about it. When you are not certified in Austria you'll be working on the nursery slopes, but it also occurs that a beginner group is assigned to you and then you'll be skiing snow plow turns on the slopes after a while. In Austria there is 4 levels as well, but in countries like Italy, France, and Switzerland to a degree, the rules are a lot stricter. There is only 1 level in those country, which is level 4. You are either a level 4, or aspiring to be a level 4. Otherwise, you're not teaching.

Maybe animosity is too strong. Disdain better? :roflmao:
What are the implications of this mentality? And what do you want me to take away from this? I am not sure if I see the connection to what we are talking about.

Interestingly the presentation/graph in the original post implies that narrow skis are more suited for the tasks required to gain certification to L2 and 3 in PSIA. Based on experience I'd say that a wide ski wouldn't matter much for CSIA L1 and 2 but would add to the degree of difficulty passing CSIA L3 and likely L4 (I've not looked into the required ski tasks for that level).

That European perspective may depend on the ski tasks on which the assessment is based.

Not so sure about students in those YTs however over the last three seasons of courses I've skied with quite a few CSIA L4s in western Canada. All but one skied predominantly sub-80 skis regardless of snow conditions - the one exception was a visiting L4 from Ontario who was on mid-80s. (Some-one told me that there were only around 150 active L4s in Canada so my sample would be around 10%.) It's a similar story with most of the CSIA L3 instructors I've met. Nearly always use narrow skis.

I've seen an occasional YT of high level instructors on fat skis but by far the majority are on narrows.

BTW interesting posts.
Does the graph imply narrow ski's are more suited for the task or does the graph imply better skiers have better balance and hence ski with a narrower stance?

150 L4's seems like an extremely low number btw. If this is true, how come there is so little L4's?
I'm not sure how many there are in Austria, but there are 650+ skischools in Austria and you need to have the Austrian equivalant of L4 (Staatlich) to open a skischool. So there is at least 650 L4's and if I had to guess there is probably close to 2000 L4's in Austria. Germany also has close to 2000 for example.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,678
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
Why so few level IVs? I am not a ski instructor, just a skier and Canadian ski patroller who knows a few instructors. From what I have gathered in Canada there is very little incentive to become a Level 4 instructor. The cost benefit ratio just isn't there, considering the high cost and effort involved in learning to ski and teach "to the standards", the low pass rates at exams, and the low remuneration available to ski instructors, and the just as low incremental remuneration for getting a higher level certificate. There may be a few exceptions at large resorts out west, but for most of Canada it's just not worth it to most potential candidates. Due to a love of skiing and teaching, Level 1 and 2 are considered goals by many skiers and instructors, but there are few level 3s and even fewer level 4s.
 

KingGrump

Most Interesting Man In The World
Team Gathermeister
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
12,331
Location
NYC
What are the implications of this mentality? And what do you want me to take away from this? I am not sure if I see the connection to what we are talking about.

Not all posters in this thread are instructors.
 

Kneale Brownson

Making fresh tracks forever on the other side
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
1,863
The Canadian Level IVs are examiners. PSIA does not have a "level" for examiners. But the testing process to become a PSIA examiner is similar. The reason for becoming an examiner usually is more about the desire to be teaching at the highest level--teaching the teachers--than to get higher pay.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,387
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
The Canadian Level IVs are examiners. PSIA does not have a "level" for examiners. But the testing process to become a PSIA examiner is similar. The reason for becoming an examiner usually is more about the desire to be teaching at the highest level--teaching the teachers--than to get higher pay.
Also, the level of skiing (as well as teaching/movement analysis) required for becoming a CSIA Level 4 or a PSIA examiner is (much) higher than for Level 3, which is higher than Level 2 etc. All of the CSIA Level 4's I've skied with were ski gods. Amongst the best skiers I've skied with, including demo team members. (and I've skied with quite a few of them). While attaining Level 3 is no easy task, achieving Level 4, or examiner for that matter, is a pretty difficult task. Also, in PSIA, becoming an examiner is becoming an employee of the PSIA division (at least in Rocky Mountain), so there is a job interview involved...

Mike
 

Kneale Brownson

Making fresh tracks forever on the other side
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
1,863
PSIA examiners are employees of their divisions, but that applies mainly to events they conduct or training they attend. They still need jobs.
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,723
Location
New England
This thread is getting interesting. I had no idea that PSIA examiners were paid employees of their regional PSIA. Oh, wait, so they would be employees of PSIA only in the sense that they get paid to teach those clinics that PSIA runs for instructors. Yeah, that makes sense.

@Mike King, are you implying that the "job interview" looks for qualities in the examiner candidate that go beyond skiing and teaching to the standards established for examiners? If so, what?
 
Last edited:

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
Pass Pulled
Joined
Dec 21, 2015
Posts
4,123
yep....as well as the mountain they work at.
 

Skitechniek

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Jun 10, 2019
Posts
281
Location
Europe
Does the graph imply narrow ski's are more suited for the task or does the graph imply better skiers have better balance and hence ski with a narrower stance?

I see I made a mistake in interpreting the graph. Hence my questions in the post above. I thought they meant stance width, instead of ski width.

This poses another question. Is the correlation in passing the exam and ski width really due to the narrower ski being better suited to the task, or are there other reasons as well?

The reason I ask this is because I think you would see the same results in Austria, but this would also have to do with mentality of the examiners. Some would probably let you fail because you do not have the right ski. You are basically being pushed towards a narrower ski, which is why you would automatically see most good skiers on narrow ski's.
 
Top