Ski Width and Certification Exams

[geepers]

Yeah not sexist. Just a 106mm ski is a different proposition for an average guy to an average gal. I'm a big guy and I pretty much ski a 107mm ski as a daily driver on trips. Now the same ski in shorter lengths is very much a big powder ski for some of my female friends.

In which case maybe it's "...large adults..." - there's supposedly 1.5m females over 6 ft in the USA. Some of them probably ski. There's some 16m USA males under 5ft 7" and 50% of the USA male population is below 5ft 10".

The size thing... my son's been a full time ski patroller the past 4 Canadian seasons. 5ft 7", maybe 135lbs dripping wet. Gets 100+ days a season. Those wides were his only skis. Very athletic skiing - lots of air, speed and huge use of counter-rotation. Very little carving happening on the groomers. Put him on my 84mm Rossis and he carves just fine. It's not race and it's not L3/L4 but it's solid. Clearly the skis make a big difference to the technique he naturally adopts.

 

[fatbob]

Good for your son. There are plenty of younger skiers who have a similar one ski quiver and clearly a 100-110mm ski is a "mid fat" for them. My reference to adult male was intended to provide a reference point for scaling up or down on size.

I get on skis in the 80ish bracket that people here and instructors rave about as the solution to everything and just thing "meh these things are too skinny to be any fun unless I'm on a groomer or in bumps". I probably wouldn't even be a skier if I hadn't bought a pair of OG Motherships back in '04 to supplement my snowboarding. Suddenly I had a tool which was versatile all over the mountain like a snowboard.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

At 0:45, this?

Pretty much. An extreme example, I'd say. I found that to be disconcerting when I tried the big K2. Doesn't happen so much on my Patrons, but it can.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I probably wouldn't even be a skier if I hadn't bought a pair of OG Motherships back in '04 to supplement my snowboarding. Suddenly I had a tool which was versatile all over the mountain like a snowboard.

Except on cat tracks, eh?

 

[fatbob]

Cat tracks are usually fine to an experienced boarder unless they go uphill. It was technical traverses and hitting the flats on big powder days that really convinced me that skiing was less hassle.

 

[markojp]

1.And the fundamentals that carve, pivot, and pressure remain and can be transferred to any arrow

2. It only matters if the ski choice is an obvious handicap to the candidate's ability to peform the drill well.. and if they suck on fat skis they'll also suck ion skinny skis and vice versa.


3.I suspect ultimately more passing candidates are using narrower skis because people who are experienced on narrow skis usually have been skiing longer than people who prefer a really wide ski for all occasions.... and they need to be prepared for all occasions.

1. Yes, but not with the same precision. Think butcher knife vs. scalpel.

2. FWIW, I dont know a single examiner, trainer, L3, who skis exam tasks as accurately on 100 and greater width skis than they can on narrowe skis. See butcher knife vs. scalpel above.

3. No. I've skied all my life. I did L1 on a 104, L2 on an 89, and L3 on an 80. There's a trend here, and it's not unique. It's easier to ski tasks (and demo) with greater accuracy on a narrower ski. Accurate movements make off piste skiing on narrower skis very doable even if one might prefer a wider ski. As said before, the exam is usually done on one pair of skis. See butcher knife vs. scalpel above.... or a fishing knife for an 85-90 width ski.

Butcher knives are great, but not for surgery or cleaning fish.

 

[fatbob]

But butcher knives are great when you want to slash and cut it up.

Nice analogy.

 

[James]

Or one just uses one knife for everything. Sometimes in different ways. Chinese cleaver. Like at 1:35 using the handle.

No one uses a scalpel or an exacto for food unless it's pretty far out there.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

I usually go the Loveland demo day in November. I try and ski a large variety of skis of all widths. Conditions are usually man made hardpack. I can tip the 100+ skis and make decent RR tracks but I just can’t imagine using those skis for a L2 exam and if I ever take L3, I would never use that wide of a ski. Just seems like too much effort for less precise movements. I am 5’8 and 145 lbs.

My daily ski is 71. I ski it in all conditions. Feels much better.

 

[markojp]

Or one just uses one knife for everything. Sometimes in different ways. Chinese cleaver. Like at 1:35 using the handle.

No one uses a scalpel or an exacto for food unless it's pretty far out there.

Scalpels are common in surgery. Not so much for amputation, or if we follow your food logic, cannibalism.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

2. FWIW, I dont know a single examiner, trainer, L3, who skis exam tasks as accurately on 100 and greater width skis than they can on narrowe skis. See butcher knife vs. scalpel above.

/QUOTE]

Interesting. I just went to the PSIA Alpine Team site and looked at the pictures. Almost every member is holding what looks to be a 100 or greater ski.

 

[markojp]

Kneale, if you're looking here ( http://www.thesnowpros.org/about/teams/alpine-team ) , nearly eveyone is holding a frontside piste or race(ish) ski. I don't know if the chairman owns a ski wider than 82. But it really doesn't matter. I'm sure they all have their days on wider skis. I've skied with one team member who was on a Rossi Super 7 on a very firm day. I'm sure it wasn't his first choice, but I think his son had grabbed his hard snow skis that day. Rung what'ja brung....

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Did you see Dave Lyon's?

 

[crgildart]

1. Yes, but not with the same precision. Think butcher knife vs. scalpel.

2. FWIW, I dont know a single examiner, trainer, L3, who skis exam tasks as accurately on 100 and greater width skis than they can on narrowe skis. See butcher knife vs. scalpel above.

3. No. I've skied all my life. I did L1 on a 104, L2 on an 89, and L3 on an 80. There's a trend here, and it's not unique. It's easier to ski tasks (and demo) with greater accuracy on a narrower ski. Accurate movements make off piste skiing on narrower skis very doable even if one might prefer a wider ski. As said before, the exam is usually done on one pair of skis. See butcher knife vs. scalpel above.... or a fishing knife for an 85-90 width ski.

Butcher knives are great, but not for surgery or cleaning fish.

Nobody's arguing that a sub 90 ski isn't better for the hard snow drills, quite the opposite. It's simple physics that a narrower ski is better for edge to edge stuff, precision feathering, etc.. That said, are you fairly confident you would have failed the L2 or L3 if you were on 95s 0r even 100s?? Harder probably, impossible? Hardly.

 

[James]

Nobody's arguing that a sub 90 ski isn't better for the hard snow drills, quite the opposite. It's simple physics that a narrower ski is better for edge to edge stuff, precision feathering, etc.. That said, are you fairly confident you would have failed the L2 or L3 if you were on 95s 0r even 100s?? Harder probably, impossible? Hardly.

No, but the wider skis encourage tail pushing slarvey technique. The "data" is really self selecting. Generally those people don't ski wide skis for that tyoe of stuff.
I've never skied with a demo member who's been on fat skis. It's been a few years, but that includes Big Sky. The last was Highlands Bowl with Jennifer Simpson. She was on a cheater gs ski.

 

[crgildart]

No, but the wider skis encourage tail pushing slarvey technique. The "data" is really self selecting. Generally those people don't ski wide skis for that tyoe of stuff.
I've never skied with a demo member who's been on fat skis. It's been a few years, but that includes Big Sky. The last was Highlands Bowl with Jennifer Simpson. She was on a cheater gs ski.

I haven't been on anything over 85 in three years. Only been on a 90+ once in the past 10 years. I wish I had been on the wider skis last time I went out to ski bumps and groomers and group decided to duck the rope. What a spitshow that was hahaha! But I didn't die. Odds of me seeing anything over a foot deep are pretty slim. Only a couple times in the past 20 years have I gotten to the resort before it was groomed down. And, there's not much in the way of side country at the small places around here.

I can totally see why folks who ski bigger places farther north or higher up would get way more utility out of the 95+ options as a daily driver... ungroomed leftovers are pretty difficult on SL skis..

 

[markojp]

That said, are you fairly confident you would have failed the L2 or L3 if you were on 95s 0r even 100s?? Harder probably, impossible? Hardly.

CR, it's not a rhetorical world of binary absolutes, and I think you're well aware of that. It's only June. Don't burn up your reserve too early on.

(L2 I could have passed on the 104's... they bent very nicely and were a wee short. Could I have skied to standard on them for L3 at the time? Dunno, but being that I failed the first go around on a 100, well.... Could I pass L3 on a 100 now? Yes.)

 

[whumber]

I wonder how much of this is mixing up the cause and effect. I think it's more likely that what this actually tells us is that those with a racing background are more likely to have the skills required to pass the L3 skiing exam. As an aside though, I have been told by two eastern examiners that I should spend as much time as possible on my GS skis in preparation for the L3 skiing exam.

 

[James]

I wonder how much of this is mixing up the cause and effect. I think it's more likely that what this actually tells us is that those with a racing background are more likely to have the skills required to pass the L3 skiing exam. As an aside though, I have been told by two eastern examiners that I should spend as much time as possible on my GS skis in preparation for the L3 skiing exam.

Not really. I doubt it's more than 50% with that background.
Their latest thing with large sidecut skis is they want to see you "turn your legs" . I think it's just lazy ma.

In general, all this is way over thought. Learn how to do the basic maneuvers, wedge/wedge christie, the tasks, and ski. It's either there or not.

 

[KingGrump]

In general, all this is way over thought. Learn how to do the basic maneuvers