Hoping for those details and specifics.....
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"Ski up" Progressions for First Time, Beginner or Intermediate Skiers?
- Thread starter Tim Hodgson
- Start date
Hoping for those details and specifics.....
OK, let me build on what has been suggested so far. How about if I have my first time students do this as the static part of my First Time "Ski Up" (static, traverse to dynamic) progression?
Have first time students' balance on tippy toes with bellybutton over toes and hand's outstretched (on poles with pole tips in snow for balance if needed) without skis on:
1. Move both heels out to wedge position and then back to parallel. Repeat to ingrain pressure forward and rotation in and out.
2. Move (what I tell them is the "downhill/outside ski") heel outward while bringing (what I tell them is the "uphill/inside ski") parallel to the "downhill/outside ski."
3. Tell them to put all their weight on the "downhill/outside ski" toe while doing the movement in no. 2.
Have first time students' balance on tippy toes with bellybutton over toes and hand's outstretched (on poles with pole tips in snow for balance if needed) without skis on:
1. Move both heels out to wedge position and then back to parallel. Repeat to ingrain pressure forward and rotation in and out.
2. Move (what I tell them is the "downhill/outside ski") heel outward while bringing (what I tell them is the "uphill/inside ski") parallel to the "downhill/outside ski."
3. Tell them to put all their weight on the "downhill/outside ski" toe while doing the movement in no. 2.
Tim, why balance on tippy toes?
I disagree with number one. Someone can move their heels out without turning their legs. The mechanism you want to teach is rotation of the legs. Have them twist their thighs towards each other. Yes, the heels end up out but it is a totally different movement pattern. I disagree with number 2. See number one. Have them turn their thighs towards each other. Once they have turned their thighs towards each other, they can spread their legs to enlarge the wedge. I disagree with number 3. Telling them to put their weight on the downhill ski does not give them a way to allow the weight to go to the outside ski. Once they start sliding, you can teach them to flatten the downhill ski as they turn their legs, the weight will go to the outside ski without them "putting it anywhere".
Hey Nancy and JESinstr: Well there are only two ways to get you gals and guys to post in this thread. One is to ask. (Which wasn't working all that well.) The other is to post thoughts and see if I draw fire. Thank you for only disagreeing with all of my three thoughts.
I think maybe I will try my thoughts this season . And anything else you gals and guys can come up with.
Thighs are a little high up from the snow for what I want to try as a "ski up"--focused progression. (And, personally I cannot turn my heals out without moving my legs...)
I think I like my idea because it immediately focuses the student's mind on Balance. And tippy toes might make them focus on Balancing Forward. Maybe if I can get them used to balancing on their tippy toes in their ski boots in the corral before the lesson, balancing forward on the slope in the lesson won't feel so unusual and scary
I like teaching an active turn especially to First Timers. In my experience they want to know "What to DO."
So a patience turn to patiently turn out of the fall line on our perceived-to-be narrow compound fall line slope is not as confidence building as an actively deployed weight shifted to downhill/outside ski J-turn actively rotated uphill to safety.
But keep it coming gals and guys. Any more ideas for: "Ski up" Progressions for First Time, Beginner or Intermediate Skiers?
PS: My students' learned to walk by "putting" their weight on the forward foot - not by shortening the leg on their back foot. So it seems that putting weight on the new downhill/outside ski would be the most fundamental example of "training from transfer."
I think maybe I will try my thoughts this season . And anything else you gals and guys can come up with.
Thighs are a little high up from the snow for what I want to try as a "ski up"--focused progression. (And, personally I cannot turn my heals out without moving my legs...)
I think I like my idea because it immediately focuses the student's mind on Balance. And tippy toes might make them focus on Balancing Forward. Maybe if I can get them used to balancing on their tippy toes in their ski boots in the corral before the lesson, balancing forward on the slope in the lesson won't feel so unusual and scary
I like teaching an active turn especially to First Timers. In my experience they want to know "What to DO."
So a patience turn to patiently turn out of the fall line on our perceived-to-be narrow compound fall line slope is not as confidence building as an actively deployed weight shifted to downhill/outside ski J-turn actively rotated uphill to safety.
But keep it coming gals and guys. Any more ideas for: "Ski up" Progressions for First Time, Beginner or Intermediate Skiers?
PS: My students' learned to walk by "putting" their weight on the forward foot - not by shortening the leg on their back foot. So it seems that putting weight on the new downhill/outside ski would be the most fundamental example of "training from transfer."
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Here's a bunch of things to do with a foot focus. Thanks for setting up the thread this way; it's been a fun list to compile. In all of these, the upper body does nothing; keep it "quiet."
1. Glide straight down the fall line on parallel flat skis. Do this on beginner slope so your student does not go too fast.
Slide one foot back, oh, about 3-5 inches while heading downhill. Do not allow the hip above it to move or rotate, just move the one foot.
Do not rotate the foot; no rotation, just a foot slide-back, or foot pull-back.
See what happens. (skis should turn together, no stemming)
Go do something with that revelation together on new terrain, you and your student, depending on what level they are skiing at. This can be morphed into a flat 180, then into a flat 360 if you've got enough time with the student.
2. Glide straight down the fall line on parallel skis. Do this on beginner slope so your student doesn't go too fast.
Slide one foot back, as above, keeping the hip above it stable, and at the same time point that knee outward to go bowlegged.
Try not to rotate the foot/ski, just move the knee outward as the foot slides back and keep skis parallel.
See what happens.
Go do something with that revelation together.... what depends on what level the student is skiing at, as above.
3. Same as 2, but this time allow the foot to rotate so that its tip points outward relative to the other ski. See what happens. (Works very well in dense glop.) Muse upon the perceived difference between 2 and 3. Go do something together with that observation on different terrain.
4. Glide straight down the fall line on beginner terrain. Hold hands together behind back, poles dragging. This will keep skier not-aft. Tip both feet onto left edges, then onto right edges, tipping at the ankles inside the boots. Do NOT rotate feet/skis. Try to not fall over. Keep at it until not falling over and not rotating feet/skis. Leave pencil-thin tracks in snow (RRtrx). Enjoy. If skier is intermediate, take this to next level of terrain and see how long the skier can keep hands together behind back, poles dragging. This can be built upon to generate round carved turns, but it takes time and the right terrain without traffic. Skiers used to pivoting skis at turn-start will have a very hard time deleting the pivot.
5. Glide straight down the fall line on beginner terrain. Lift the tail of one ski with the foot, keeping the ski's tip on the snow. See what happens. Vary how high the tail is lifted. Don't do anything else for a while to clarify the effect. (Stork turns, flamingo turns, ... etc.)
Add going bowlegged with that knee, without rotating the foot/ski. See what happens.
Add ankle-tipping that ski onto its little toe edge. See what happens.
Add pulling that ski back, oh, 3-5 inches. See what happens. (Whoah!)
Muse upon the different effects. Go mess around with this bunch of movements with your student, choosing terrain depending on the skier's level.
6. Side-slips to edge-sets, back to side-slips, to edge-sets, repeat. Progress to hockey-slows then to hockey-stops with a focus on foot rotation. Add hockey-stopping on a downhill target on the snow (shadow, leaf, divot), ending with a firm pole-plant. Take to new terrain for fun. Do slow gentle hockey-stops that don't wake up the snow, and fast hockey-stops that send snow-spray (to build tipping and rotating skills).
7. Falling leaf, side-slips to downhill targets, side-slip garlands with rotating feet to point ski tips downhill then back uphill. Side-slips with one-foot-pull-back to see what happens. Progress to very slow side-slippy turns down the hill.
8. Pivot slips, with a foot-only focus. Start with side-slips. Rotate flat skis, pulling/sliding one foot back uphill of the other, keeping feet on separate tracks. The foot-slide-back is essential, and builds on previous exercises above. Pay attention to the imaginary tracks and don't let the feet move left-right off those tracks. Upper body and hips face downhill. No pole plants.
9. Shuffle turns on beginner terrain, step-turns on beginner terrain, march! on beginner terrain, hop in between turns on any terrain (for centered stance).
10. Thumpers - lift tail of inside ski and THUMP! it down during turns. Start with thumping between turns, move to thumping through the entire turn (for outside ski balance).
11. Skate on flats using feet only, no poles, skate uphill, skate downhill on beginner terrain. Morph skating into turns (skate-to-shape).
1. Glide straight down the fall line on parallel flat skis. Do this on beginner slope so your student does not go too fast.
Slide one foot back, oh, about 3-5 inches while heading downhill. Do not allow the hip above it to move or rotate, just move the one foot.
Do not rotate the foot; no rotation, just a foot slide-back, or foot pull-back.
See what happens. (skis should turn together, no stemming)
Go do something with that revelation together on new terrain, you and your student, depending on what level they are skiing at. This can be morphed into a flat 180, then into a flat 360 if you've got enough time with the student.
2. Glide straight down the fall line on parallel skis. Do this on beginner slope so your student doesn't go too fast.
Slide one foot back, as above, keeping the hip above it stable, and at the same time point that knee outward to go bowlegged.
Try not to rotate the foot/ski, just move the knee outward as the foot slides back and keep skis parallel.
See what happens.
Go do something with that revelation together.... what depends on what level the student is skiing at, as above.
3. Same as 2, but this time allow the foot to rotate so that its tip points outward relative to the other ski. See what happens. (Works very well in dense glop.) Muse upon the perceived difference between 2 and 3. Go do something together with that observation on different terrain.
4. Glide straight down the fall line on beginner terrain. Hold hands together behind back, poles dragging. This will keep skier not-aft. Tip both feet onto left edges, then onto right edges, tipping at the ankles inside the boots. Do NOT rotate feet/skis. Try to not fall over. Keep at it until not falling over and not rotating feet/skis. Leave pencil-thin tracks in snow (RRtrx). Enjoy. If skier is intermediate, take this to next level of terrain and see how long the skier can keep hands together behind back, poles dragging. This can be built upon to generate round carved turns, but it takes time and the right terrain without traffic. Skiers used to pivoting skis at turn-start will have a very hard time deleting the pivot.
5. Glide straight down the fall line on beginner terrain. Lift the tail of one ski with the foot, keeping the ski's tip on the snow. See what happens. Vary how high the tail is lifted. Don't do anything else for a while to clarify the effect. (Stork turns, flamingo turns, ... etc.)
Add going bowlegged with that knee, without rotating the foot/ski. See what happens.
Add ankle-tipping that ski onto its little toe edge. See what happens.
Add pulling that ski back, oh, 3-5 inches. See what happens. (Whoah!)
Muse upon the different effects. Go mess around with this bunch of movements with your student, choosing terrain depending on the skier's level.
6. Side-slips to edge-sets, back to side-slips, to edge-sets, repeat. Progress to hockey-slows then to hockey-stops with a focus on foot rotation. Add hockey-stopping on a downhill target on the snow (shadow, leaf, divot), ending with a firm pole-plant. Take to new terrain for fun. Do slow gentle hockey-stops that don't wake up the snow, and fast hockey-stops that send snow-spray (to build tipping and rotating skills).
7. Falling leaf, side-slips to downhill targets, side-slip garlands with rotating feet to point ski tips downhill then back uphill. Side-slips with one-foot-pull-back to see what happens. Progress to very slow side-slippy turns down the hill.
8. Pivot slips, with a foot-only focus. Start with side-slips. Rotate flat skis, pulling/sliding one foot back uphill of the other, keeping feet on separate tracks. The foot-slide-back is essential, and builds on previous exercises above. Pay attention to the imaginary tracks and don't let the feet move left-right off those tracks. Upper body and hips face downhill. No pole plants.
9. Shuffle turns on beginner terrain, step-turns on beginner terrain, march! on beginner terrain, hop in between turns on any terrain (for centered stance).
10. Thumpers - lift tail of inside ski and THUMP! it down during turns. Start with thumping between turns, move to thumping through the entire turn (for outside ski balance).
11. Skate on flats using feet only, no poles, skate uphill, skate downhill on beginner terrain. Morph skating into turns (skate-to-shape).
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Tim, I do teach my students what to do. Balancing on tippy toes only leads to locked up quad muscles and prevents leg rotation. Your way is a dead end way to teach beginners but carry on.
Thanks Nancy! I haven't actually tried what I suggested. I am just inquiring. Sounds like you tried it and ended up with students with locked up quads. I agree that would not be good.
So, then teach me what to do!
Please post up your "Ski up" Progressions for First Time, Beginner or Intermediate Skiers
So, then teach me what to do!
Please post up your "Ski up" Progressions for First Time, Beginner or Intermediate Skiers
Hi Steve,
I like this analogy and it immediately made me think “Skidded turns are to printing as carving turns are to cursive.” Don’t know why; just did. It works well for me as it coach U10s and I believe this is when most of the athletes are working on cursive in school.
Sorry for the drift.
Ken
bump...
Thanks LF!
I hope we get some progressions from markojp and Nancy and JESinstr and others ...
I also really want to see what SkySailor has to say, because SkySailor advocates a "'balance-forward'-from-the-ball-of-foot" approach.
But practically how do you ingrain that concept from the start in First Timers, Beginners and Intermediates?
I promise I will experiment next season with every progression you gals and guys suggest.
But I would like to hear about your suggested "Ski up" Progressions for First Time, Beginner or Intermediate Skiers? well before this next season starts.
BTW, I can't help but wonder if on LF's one-foot-pull-back drills, if SkySailor wouldn't say: "You're half-way there -- just pull back both feet." because everything works better and more simultaneously when forward.
This is improperly putting words in SkySailor's mouth, but how else to draw out SkySailor's and others participation?
Thanks LF!
I hope we get some progressions from markojp and Nancy and JESinstr and others ...
I also really want to see what SkySailor has to say, because SkySailor advocates a "'balance-forward'-from-the-ball-of-foot" approach.
But practically how do you ingrain that concept from the start in First Timers, Beginners and Intermediates?
I promise I will experiment next season with every progression you gals and guys suggest.
But I would like to hear about your suggested "Ski up" Progressions for First Time, Beginner or Intermediate Skiers? well before this next season starts.
BTW, I can't help but wonder if on LF's one-foot-pull-back drills, if SkySailor wouldn't say: "You're half-way there -- just pull back both feet." because everything works better and more simultaneously when forward.
This is improperly putting words in SkySailor's mouth, but how else to draw out SkySailor's and others participation?
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So Tim, this might surprise you, but I do not recommend "ski up" or single ski progressions/exercises for beginners. I used to, but I believe we first need to establish new stance mechanics for fore and aft balance and when we ask a newbie to lift a ski, we introduce an unneeded, higher awareness/focus on lateral balance. I think the whole issue of preliminaries needs to be revisited. I say this understanding the logic of trying to get never-evers familiar with the fact that we just attached something to their feet that takes away the friction they use every day for locomotion and increases the size of their foot 500%!
But it is the lack of friction under foot that needs to be dealt with first. Without a friction causing surface, the feet are free to move forward and backward, out from under the upper body mass, radically affecting the COM. IMO those that advocate balancing "forward" on the balls of their feet are misguided. Make no mistake, when I ski I really feel the large ball of my foot. But I am not balanced over it. We balance on the balls of our feet when there is friction with which to interact and the plantar effect of the toes play a key role in supporting this form of balance.
Now we know the center of the ski is roughly under the ball of the foot right?. So how to we reconcile this situation in terms of fore and aft?
The answer is the leveraging capabilities of the boot which just so happens to be activated by the flexing complex (ankles knees and hips). So, in using proper flexing movements, we can direct our COM to balance through (compressing) the arch, using the balls of the feet and the heel as the supporting "pillars". This provides a solid and controllable balance platform, not only for frictionless fore and aft dynamic balance but for rotary movements of the upper leg. At the same time, we can apply pressure forward to the center of the ski and beyond by invoking the structural properties of the boot through shin to tongue interaction. Ironically, I find that it is the uncontrolled release of boot leverage pressure that causes many of the issues. Teaching students to handle the release of forces may be more important than creating the force, hence my "easy in, easy out" mantra.
For this coming season, I am working on a dynamic balance teaching progression that will displace much of what we now call preliminaries. I think it makes much better use of the limited time we have with the customer.
But it is the lack of friction under foot that needs to be dealt with first. Without a friction causing surface, the feet are free to move forward and backward, out from under the upper body mass, radically affecting the COM. IMO those that advocate balancing "forward" on the balls of their feet are misguided. Make no mistake, when I ski I really feel the large ball of my foot. But I am not balanced over it. We balance on the balls of our feet when there is friction with which to interact and the plantar effect of the toes play a key role in supporting this form of balance.
Now we know the center of the ski is roughly under the ball of the foot right?. So how to we reconcile this situation in terms of fore and aft?
The answer is the leveraging capabilities of the boot which just so happens to be activated by the flexing complex (ankles knees and hips). So, in using proper flexing movements, we can direct our COM to balance through (compressing) the arch, using the balls of the feet and the heel as the supporting "pillars". This provides a solid and controllable balance platform, not only for frictionless fore and aft dynamic balance but for rotary movements of the upper leg. At the same time, we can apply pressure forward to the center of the ski and beyond by invoking the structural properties of the boot through shin to tongue interaction. Ironically, I find that it is the uncontrolled release of boot leverage pressure that causes many of the issues. Teaching students to handle the release of forces may be more important than creating the force, hence my "easy in, easy out" mantra.
For this coming season, I am working on a dynamic balance teaching progression that will displace much of what we now call preliminaries. I think it makes much better use of the limited time we have with the customer.
JESinstr: I am not here to agree or to disagree but to learn. Thank you for your post. It explains the paucity of progressions in this thread. No one teaches beginners from the ski up. And likely for the reasons you state. People learn to rollerblade. And they usually start with stiff boots and locked feet in a rigid stance too.
Last season I asked my peers and the Level III's for BALANCE progressions. But, IMHO, I didn't really get any satisfying answers.
Among others these things ring so true to me:
"I think the whole issue of preliminaries needs to be revisited."
"The answer is the leveraging capabilities of the boot which just so happens to be activated by the flexing complex (ankles knees and hips). So, in using proper flexing movements, we can direct our COM to balance through (compressing) the arch, using the balls of the feet and the heel as the supporting "pillars"."
"I find that it is the uncontrolled release of boot leverage pressure that causes many of the issues. Teaching students to handle the release of forces may be more important than creating the force..." I have nver heard this said before in such a clear way. And it is one of the things that is lacking in my personal skiing.
"For this coming season, I am working on a dynamic balance teaching progression that will displace much of what we now call preliminaries." You own what you develop. I respect that. But I hope you will share it for a price or here for free.
Last season I asked my peers and the Level III's for BALANCE progressions. But, IMHO, I didn't really get any satisfying answers.
Among others these things ring so true to me:
"I think the whole issue of preliminaries needs to be revisited."
"The answer is the leveraging capabilities of the boot which just so happens to be activated by the flexing complex (ankles knees and hips). So, in using proper flexing movements, we can direct our COM to balance through (compressing) the arch, using the balls of the feet and the heel as the supporting "pillars"."
"I find that it is the uncontrolled release of boot leverage pressure that causes many of the issues. Teaching students to handle the release of forces may be more important than creating the force..." I have nver heard this said before in such a clear way. And it is one of the things that is lacking in my personal skiing.
"For this coming season, I am working on a dynamic balance teaching progression that will displace much of what we now call preliminaries." You own what you develop. I respect that. But I hope you will share it for a price or here for free.
Hi Tim!
It's "Skisailor" and I think if you put an "@" in front of it, I would have been notified about your thread. Anyway - I found it and just read through. I think you've actually gotten alot of good ideas for things to do with beginners in this thread. And yes - I do alot of boot work in the beginning focusing on things that will get beginners to feel what it's like to 1) rotate their legs (independently and together), 2) tip their feet and legs to put their boot/ski on the inside or outside edge, and 3) shift their weight (fore-aft and ski to ski). Basic movements from the old REP concepts.
That said, no. I'm not a subscriber to the "everything we do as instructors should be from the ski up" as a framework for ski instruction. IMHO, that is too rigid a way to look at skiing and ski teaching. Now - that is not to be confused with the idea that the ski-snow interface is where it's at!! I absolutely agree with that. But getting things to happen "down there" does NOT necessarily mean we have to focus "down there", IMO.
In my movement analysis and in my teaching prescriptions I use what I think will work. And that can be all over the map. Sometimes it DOES start with the feet. But it could just as easily start with the head.
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