"Ski up" Progressions for First Time, Beginner or Intermediate Skiers?

Discussion in 'Ski School' started by Tim Hodgson, Aug 1, 2018.

  1. Tim Hodgson

    Tim Hodgson Booting up Skier

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    Do you use "ski up" progressions to instruct first timers, beginner, or intermediate skiers? If so, please describe.
     
  2. Jilly

    Jilly Lead Cougar Skier

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    Describe "ski up" please.
     
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  3. markojp

    markojp mtn rep for the gear on my feet Industry Insider Instructor

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    Wat Jilly sed.
     
  4. Tim Hodgson

    Tim Hodgson Booting up Skier

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    Ok, then "from the snow up." In other words, teaching feet movements rather than teaching torso, hip or even knee movements.
     
  5. markojp

    markojp mtn rep for the gear on my feet Industry Insider Instructor

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    Tim, you can do almost any drill with a 'this starts inside the boot with the feet' focus... More later when I have time, but in an ideal world, I'd start in bare feet with someone. Even for long time skiers and many instructors, skiing 'from the inside of the boot' is pretty radical stuff. Step one though is with skis on, stand across the front of your student's skis just ahead of the toe pieces. Ask them to tip the ski on edge. They'll use hips, shoulders, and the usual suspect big moves. Now ask them to just tip their feet inside their boot with NO other movement. Ask them to tip more... then more... always from the feet. Watch the magic happen. Other points in the angulation chain will begin to move, but as a result of what the feet are doing. More detail and specifics when I have time.
     


  6. Jilly

    Jilly Lead Cougar Skier

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    Well that goes along with what my CSIA 3 course conductor said....Watch the skier. What bugs you about it? Start at the feet and go up. It could be something as simple as the skis are not parallel to edging only one ski in an intermediate.

    So yes....start with the feet.
     
  7. epic

    epic Making fresh tracks Instructor

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    Yes.
     
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  8. Kneale Brownson

    Kneale Brownson Out on the slopes Instructor

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    I start beginner lessons with a bottoms-of-the-feet awareness routine, go to edges-of-the-feet sensation movements and then develop awareness of all directional movements beginning with the feet. I often use the same routine when beginning level 4-5 lessons and will use it as needed for level 6-7 lessons.
     
  9. Jilly

    Jilly Lead Cougar Skier

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    CSIA methodology has always been to start with turning the feet, or steering the feet at the never-ever level. Quiet upper body.
     
  10. Steve

    Steve SkiMangoJazz Skier

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    From another thread I posted this which is relevant. I always teach that we ski with our feet.

    The analogy I use when teaching is holding a pen (or pencil.) Where do we hold it to write? Near the tip. I take my ski pole and mimic writing with it. It's very hard to write holding a pen in the middle or up near the top. The best control comes from near the tip. Where the rubber meets the road so to speak. From the feet.
     
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  11. Tim Hodgson

    Tim Hodgson Booting up Skier

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    Ok, easy to say. But I am a meat and potatoes kinda guy so....

    DESCRIBE YOUR "FEET UP" PROGRESSIONS FOR FIRST TIMERS!

    DESCRIBE YOUR "FEET UP" PROGRESSIONS FOR BEGINNERS!

    DESCRIBE YOUR "FEET UP" PROGRESSIONS FOR INTERMEDIATES!


    My progressions usually consist of a static, a traverse and then a dynamic through the fall line, but you can order, divide up, and discuss your progressions in any way you like.

    I just want to know your exact progressions, because I want to change my teaching.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2018
  12. Steve

    Steve SkiMangoJazz Skier

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    Tim there are lots of possible progressions. I think the common point would be to coach the students to think about their feet. To feel their feet. To think of the boots as handles on the skis.

    Whatever you have them do the focus should be on using the feet (and legs) to make it happen.

    I really doubt that any of us have a single progression for a level of students. Maybe for never-ever's, but even then there's a wide range of abilities, some can't even do a straight run on an almost flat slope without falling 3 times in 15 feet, some can do it well and can progress to turning quickly.

    Skis off (boot work) is very common for never-ever's. That's definitely a foot focus.
     
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  13. JESinstr

    JESinstr Lvl 3 1973 Skier

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    All the comments so far are excellent!!! But I have chosen Steve's post because what he is talking about (see Ron Kipp's Ankle flexion video) is TENSION.

    Prior to doing any tipping or rotary you need to teach fundamental #1 "Control the relationship of the Center of Mass to the base of support.......... to direct pressure along the length of the skis" .

    What beginners bring to their first lesson is a deeply ingrained static balance position that directs their COM primarily down through the heel and locomotion patterns for walking, running etc. These movement patterns depend on high friction contact with a surface (Tension) and a "rock over, heel to toe " implementation.

    When you take that tension creating surface away the beginner experiences a crisis of balance. So we need to employ new ways of creating tension in order to dynamically balance

    Many of us teach a tensioning of the core and that's a good thing.. but not the only thing. Kipp's video talks about dorsiflexion as a means of creating tension where, as Steve points out, the rubber meets the road.

    IMO, In skiing we balance through the arch (compressing it) using the balls of the feet and heel as the arch's "supporting columns". All vertical flexing patterns need to direct the COM between those two points.

    As @markojp states, learn in bare feet. So stand up and balance using the balls of your feet and the heel as your supporting columns for the arch. Flex your core and feel the stability. Now flex your toes up as hard as you can and feel the stability increase. This is creating tension on either side of the critical flexing complex (ankles/knees/hips).

    Obviously, over time, one will ingrain this method of dynamic balance and a high level of tension may not be needed. That being said, when I find my skiing feeling a bit off, I revert to a higher tension mode and usually find that my flexion movements were off.
     
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  14. Uke

    Uke Who am I now Skier

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    Beginner through whatever:

    "Point your toes where you wants to goes"

    More need not be said,

    uke
     
  15. Kneale Brownson

    Kneale Brownson Out on the slopes Instructor

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    Actually, moving the feet is considerably different from feeling the feet.

    Ski boots change everything from what we pedestrians do barefoot or in shoes.
     
  16. Steve

    Steve SkiMangoJazz Skier

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    I agree, but in order to have control over a body part you need to have awareness/feel/proprioception of that body part first.

    And feeling the feet in the boots is part of it.
     
  17. Kneale Brownson

    Kneale Brownson Out on the slopes Instructor

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    My footology progression for Tim:

    On a level surface, jump and find out where your feet are when you land. This is where your body likes your feet to be.

    Same spot, slowly lean back and forth, feeling how the pressure on the bottoms of your feet moves with you.

    Gradually reduce the oscillations until the pressure is spread equally along the bottoms of the feet.

    Flex the ankles so that there is pressure from the boot cuffs on the shins while the pressure remains equal along the bottoms.

    Make little hops in place and seek the same cuff and bottom sensations when landing.

    Roll both feet to one side and feel how the pressures on the bottoms move toward the corners of the boots and the shin contact moves toward the side. Roll to other side.

    Sidestep on a grade, sidestep back down. Relate edges of the feet inside the boots to edges of the skis.

    Herringbone up a grade, feeling the arch edges. Hop sideways back down, feeling feet in the corners and shin contact on the cuffs.

    Walk on level, going in large circles to both the left and right, noting how with each change of direction, we naturally move the inside foot first.

    Start activities with skis.
     
  18. markojp

    markojp mtn rep for the gear on my feet Industry Insider Instructor

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    This one is the root of a lot of misplaced big movements.. for every action, there's a reaction. Pointing is twisting...usually the body against what the feet are doing. Focus on tipping and the reaction is the ski against the snow. The latter is the root of effective movement. The former not so much.
     
  19. Uke

    Uke Who am I now Skier

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    marko,

    Actually, pointing and tipping are both effective movements/teaching strategies and both are used in high level skiing. Notice the word 'twist' was yours, I never use that word as it leads to negative outcomes such as heal pushing and upper body misalignment. In thirty plus years of teaching I have never experienced the negative outcomes that so many people were sure would arise from teaching 'point your toes'.

    The more advanced idea is "point right right go right, point left left go left. When BB came up with "Right tip right go right, left tip left go left.' I pointed out that there was a double meaning there. Tip could refer to an edging of the ski or it could refer to the front end of the ski. If I tip the ski on edge I will go that way and if I guide the tip of the ski in one direction I will go that way.

    One more point. both tipping and pointing are driven by rotation of the femur in the hip socket. It is very difficult if not impossible to separate the two actions.

    uke
     
  20. markojp

    markojp mtn rep for the gear on my feet Industry Insider Instructor

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    Yeah, I get it. It's just that I've had so much better success isolating the feet by tipping, THEN pointing/steering. Of course much depends on who we're teaching, what level, and opportunity (or challenges) presented by terrain. Everyone's mileage will vary.
     
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