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In which case I'd say don't bother. School half term weeks are overcrowded, expensive and really not European skiing at its best. Easter far better IMV.

That's a good point, I'd forgotten about that for a bit. My brother had to book his vacation rental cabin 10 months in advance ;-).

My friends and family usually go to small resorts to keep the crowding down,but it's a question wether that be worthwhile for us.

Maybe a small area on the same pass as a bigger one is the way to go. Ski in the quieter corner most of the time and brave the crowds (without kids) for a day or two.

You really think Easter? That's seems late for a long distance plan trip. It's April 1st this season, and April 21st next season.
I don't mean you can't have great skiing at Easter, just that it seems iffy for something planned long in advance.
 
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Cheizz

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Here's a little "Expected Crowds" in the Alps for coming winter (from a Dutch website)...
upload_2017-11-1_14-5-0.png
The abbrevations speak for themselves, I think, except OO, which stands for Autria ("Oostenrijk" in Dutch), and DUI, which meand Germany ("Duitsland" in Dutch).

Most peaople stay in their own country, except the Germans, who mostly go to Austria.
 
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Most people stay in their own country,.



Really? That would mean this for the Dutch ;-)


bg_img_1.jpg





On a serious note, it's surprising to me that Christmas-Newyears is busier than February. I guess it's because spring breaks are more spread out, where as the end of year vacations are tied to the two holidays, fixed for everyone.

Thanks for putting that up. I am Dutch/American, so have to stick to the vacations my Dutch friends and family get for their kids, as well as using at least some of my kids' school breaks.

There's a reason those times are so busy!
 
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Jacob

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That's exactly what I was thinking. Same goes for NA. So that's what led me to asking this. Typical alpine snow is higher moisture content than Rockies right? Also lower altitude so when the snow get's old, how bad does it get?

You have to remember that, although the bases are much lower in the Alps, the peaks in taller ski areas are at the same elevation as places like Alta and Snowbird. Also, the ski areas in the Alps are much farther north, and the bigger areas have faces pointing in many different directions.

So even if it's warm down around the base or really cold up top or windy from one direction, you should still be able to find a part of the mountain with decent snow in the middle of winter. There's almost always a Goldilocks zone in the big ski areas.
 

TonyC

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That bar graph is very good, except it leaves out Great Britain.
https://www.lastationdeski.com/date/fr-calendrier-des-vacances-scolaires-europe.html
Britain also has the weeks of Dec. 30 - Jan. 6 and Feb. 10-17 off, so those are absolutely the two weeks to avoid.
You really think Easter? That's seems late for a long distance plan trip. It's April 1st this season, and April 21st next season. I don't mean you can't have great skiing at Easter, just that it seems iffy for something planned long in advance.
That depends upon the resort. We have quite a few good ones here: Mammoth, Bachelor, Whistler, Banff, several in Colorado. I would stick to Fraser's top 10 list in my previous post, but Val d'Isere and Zermatt are the standouts in the Alps.

As for Easter Week itself, Britain and some other places have that as a holiday, and since the selection of resorts where late season snow is good is much smaller, I would avoid that particular week. My last 3 trips (plus the one set for 2018) have been in the late January/early February time frame just before that February holiday period. This period gives you a shot at a variety of places with a normal or better snowpack and no recent low elevation rain.

In 2019 and perhaps 2020 I plan to try late March/early April, after my Snowbird timeshare but before a late Easter.
You have to remember that, although the bases are much lower in the Alps, the peaks in taller ski areas are at the same elevation as places like Alta and Snowbird. Also, the ski areas in the Alps are much farther north, and the bigger areas have faces pointing in many different directions.
All very true. Whistler is the closest analogy we have here. Its alpine regions are very snow reliable, including into April when 3 of my 6 visits have been. In the Alps as at Whistler it doesn't matter much if the bottom 2,000 vertical is slop if the 3,000 above that is good. The differences?
1) The Whistler alpine averages 400+ inches while most of the Alps at altitude are more like Colorado in the 300 range.
2) Some places in the Alps have Alta/Snowbird altitude at 6-7 degrees farther north latitude, so there are probably sectors in the Alps with elite level preservation of winter snow through April comparable to A-Basin.
3) While the Alps have the potential edge in snow preservation due to altitude/latitude, they seem not to with respect to exposure. The vast majority of areas in western North America have a plurality of north facing terrain, particularly for steep ungroomed. Predominant sunny exposure for steeps in North America is so rare that counterexamples like Jackson stand out like a sore thumb. The Alps have quite a few places like that, notably the Arlberg in my experience.

You can get a feel for exposures using Google Earth, which I have done for a couple of projects. 100 of the top North American ski areas average 42% north exposure and 12% south exposure. A sample of 42 resorts in the Alps average 32% north exposure and 19% south exposure. The bottom line is that the range of snow conditions is inherently much greater in the Alps due to the big verticals and higher proportion of sunny exposures. The groomers have greater skier density over there since 95% of the people stick to them. Conversely the lower density terrain off the pistes may preserve better in the Alps, certainly in terms of powder lasting longer. But the more you range afar from the pistes the more you should consider hiring a guide.

Trails maps usually post altitudes in meters. By March you want to see a lot of terrain over 2,000 meters. Getting into spring make that 2,500 meters. Trail maps in the Alps are not good at all for exposures which are often all over the compass but have to be portrayed in two dimensions on a map. You can play around with Google Earth or consult this for Fraser's overall snow quality assessments: https://www.weathertoski.co.uk/european-resorts-a-z/
 

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I have gone over to Europe at various different months of the winter season. I've had pretty good luck with snow, in terms of quantity (coverage) if not quality.

Jan/Feb: I had good luck with snow ON THE GROUND. It's the snow in the air that's the trouble. Many resorts have their best terrain above treeline. When it's snowing, it's quite impossible to even stay upright, never mind skiing. I've had much worse luck in terms of sunshine, only about 30% of the days. The rest of the time, it's skiing the same few trails below treeline while waiting for the cloud to lift so I could see the trail marker enough to go up top.

March/April: More to my liking. By then, there's enough snow on the ground, even in the lower elevation below the treeline. Some mountains allow skiing IN the trees (not all mountain allows). Much more sunny days. Yes, there's freeze/thaw cycles. But as long as you pick a BIG resort with multiple exposures, you can always find aspect that's soft and corny.

As for whether it's worth it, I'd say NOT for the skiing. If you only got 1 week of vacation for getting the best skiing in the whole winter season, The Alps is not the best place to get it.

But for the sightseeing aspect, winter means lower cost for the flight, less crowd in the tourist destinations. And the mountain scenery is absolutely stunning, unmatched in North America. So, if the consideration is financial, I'd say it's
well worth it.
 

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Conversely the lower density terrain off the pistes may preserve better in the Alps, certainly in terms of powder lasting longer.

I couldn't agree more on this point. I always see advice for gear buyers saying they should focus more on the skinnier skis in their quiver, because those are the ones that they'll be using most of the time. And that's definitely true in many places in NA. In some places, I've seen the powder get skied out while it was still snowing.

But in Europe, I get a lot of usage out of my bigger skis, probably even more than my skinnier skis, because I spend a lot of time off piste. And even in some places that draw a lot of off-piste skiers, you can still find some good stashes of snow a couple of days after the last storm. In a place that's known more as a family resort, it takes even longer for the nice stuff to get skied out, and your main competition will be the sun or wind messing with the snow.
 
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Re Easter - I go most years to Val Thorens on the snowheads trip which is 3rd week of April, a couple of times it has started on Easter weekend like this year. I've never had bad ski conditions, had a few decent powder days and many more days of glorious spring corn. And this year probably for the first time experienced real winter freeze for a day as temps plummeted about 20 C.

Easter is earlier this season so I'll be in St Anton. Last time I was there at the end of March had a couple of big powder days.

Pick your destination carefully and Easter 2018 is a great choice IMV
 
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Thanks for all the replies, very useful, hopefully to others as well.

My last attempt to ski in the Alps was in Austria, 10 years ago, late February. Horrible winter. We skied for a day in Kaprun, and all that was open was the glacier, even at 2500m the off-piste was very bare, rocky and icy.
When we tried to ski Achenkirch a few days later and although the area was open, there was not enough coverage to ski normally, grass sticking up everywhere. That's a lower area though, 950-1800m

So this is why I was looking for some viewpoints from other people.
 
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jjsoundoc

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I've been to Zermatt with my family 6 or 7 times. Always gone in March, and have had great weather with the exception of one foggy day.
It's an experience that can't be duplicated here. Varied terrain including sections below tree-line (Riffelalp). A car-free village with electric carts and horse drawn
carriages. Runs to Italy (Cervinia) where you can ski over for lunch. I hope to go over this March! https://www.zermatt.ch/en
 

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Moved to Canada about 10 years ago and still try to go back to Austria (Lech-St-Anton) every winter.

Lived for about 8 years in Eastern Canada (QC) and this will be my third winter in Vancouver. Have skied Whistler, Revelstoke, Louise, Kicking Horse.

It's probably partly a sentimental thing (learned to ski there), but even then I think it is worthwhile to check out the Alps. If you live in the east and are debating between western US/Canada, price would be approximately the same (or cheaper). Lodging, passes, transportation are cheaper in Europe to my experience.

Have noticed this year that there seems to be more demand for lodging. Theory is that based on last few winters in Europe people try to go in Februari and are avoiding earlier and later season (but that's just my theory).

Pro's of skiing Europe:
- cheaper
- no need for rental car (depending on destination)
- alpine terrain
- better food than north america
- real villages (vs. resorts)

Negatives:
- crowds becoming less and less friendly
- snow is becoming less certain
- can get crowded (although, that happens at Whistler as well...)

Hope this helps.
 
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Another open secret is that lots of the big alpine areas are connected or at least on the same pass as below tree line satellites so a whiteout day isn't a total washout...., Sonnenkopf in Ski Arlberg.

That’s a good idea.
[Sonnenkopf is not part of Ski Arlberg I believe, it’s part of 3 Taler.]
Edit: I see they do accept the Skiarlberg ticket
 
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Here is an updatet list of vacations per country. Apparently the colors don't signify anything.
Easter will be later next year, April 21st, so end of week 16 start of week 17.

(DuitsLand = Germany, Oostenrijk = Austria)


28dd37ae0897631cde327694ce6eed70_011319c3_baed_4572_9fee_08210b6ffbb7.jpeg
 
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Wilhelmson

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Are the Alps long steep groomed runs generally more like western "ice"/hardpack, or eastern ice/hardpack usual conditions, but maybe grainier?
 

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Interesting thread. One of these years we'll ski the Alps, but years of watching World Cup ski racing have put me off. It seems like most of the time they are skiing in a WROD in a sea of brown, or skiing in the rain (like the ladies did last weekend), or races cancelled by fog or wind...I don't often see a scene that looks like it would be nice for recreational skiers, and I'm watching races every weekend. When we do go it'll be because we're looking forward to the food/culture and I'll just have to have the mindset that ski conditions are secondary and we'll probably tack on time in Paris or some other favorite city as a consolations prize if conditions are bad. Coming from the West Coast it's a bit of a haul with ski stuff.
 

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Went to ski the Dolomites for the first time this past season. We went for the last week of January to Cortina.

It is different from North America -- less emphasis on powder, jumping off of things, moguls, 3D snow, go pros, trees, etc. In Italy, there was a big emphasis on carving and laying railed tracks on perfectly groomed piste. You can tell the tourists who are sliding everywhere and the Italians who are arcing perfection on slalom skis. They ski hard a couple hours, have a long lunch, sun bathe, then they go home.

Some of the other resorts on the Sella Ronda had more off piste options (moguls, etc), like Arrabba, but we didn't have time to ski much there.

The views are absolutely stunning. Nothing like North America. You ride the gondola up a mile above the town. You can't fake 500+ year old mountain villages with cathedrals and cobblestone roads. Hearing church bells from the lodge is indescribable. The experience is 100% authentic. 'Villages' in North America now look like plastic facades or movie props. Someone on our trip said "This place makes Big Sky look like a mud hole." I haven't been to Big Sky, so I can't comment. I do know I was smiling alot just looking around.

Ski like a European if you go. Rent some skis <72mm. Try some GS and some slalom. It will make you love the groomed. I typically ski off piste in Rockies and use the groomers to get to the bowls. In Italy, I was loving the piste skiing with the hard snow skis. It hadn't snowed in 8+ days when we arrived. The conditions were still great even 4 days in. Then it snowed again and it was lovely. Visibility though was quite challenging above tree line, so we went lower.

Anyway, I highly recommend you ski the alps. It was an amazing experience for me! I look forward to going back someday. Major thing stopping me is the need to go for a full week to make the long flight and jet lag bearable. It's harder to do a full week off from work than a long weekend.
 

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For me personally...well worth it...and I'd say everyone I've been with would agree. It's a different experience (not necessarily better or worse than the NA, just different).

Yes, when it's snowing or super cloudy, the light is flat, and it's some of the worst visibility I've skied in. However, if you're a little flexible, you stick to the lower elevation lifts that day, or ski a little and venture into another town to grab a long lunch, walk around and enjoy the culture. One of my favorite things in the Alps is exactly that...you can ski from town to town, no "resorts", no "lodges", just towns. Even if you don't shop, it's nice to wander around and explore a little. And if you're patient on those days of bad weather...the bluebird days are absolutely worth it. Both times I've been, I've been lucky enough to be blessed with fresh snow...so I may have a skewed opinion.

I can easily say that I didn't have a single bad meal in the 10 days spent in Austria this past winter...food was incredible, and very reasonably priced (especially compared to US ski resort prices). Cost-wise, it really wasn't too bad compared to a vacation out west for me, lift tickets and food are cheaper...lodging was more expensive, but if you book early enough, I'm sure you can find more reasonable lodging prices.
I found that even lodging is cheaper in Europe. Hotels in squaw for example are over 300, hard to spend more than 100 in Europe.

And I don't agree that snow is worse. Why would it be?
 

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Interesting thread. One of these years we'll ski the Alps, but years of watching World Cup ski racing have put me off. It seems like most of the time they are skiing in a WROD in a sea of brown, or skiing in the rain (like the ladies did last weekend), or races cancelled by fog or wind...I don't often see a scene that looks like it would be nice for recreational skiers, and I'm watching races every weekend. When we do go it'll be because we're looking forward to the food/culture and I'll just have to have the mindset that ski conditions are secondary and we'll probably tack on time in Paris or some other favorite city as a consolations prize if conditions are bad. Coming from the West Coast it's a bit of a haul with ski stuff.

This is an off-piste course that my brother and I did in Italy last year.


This is from another off-piste course I did in St. Anton 5 years ago.


The thing that you have to keep in mind about races is that they're mostly done at low elevations, often on south-facing slopes. And, a lot of them are early or late in the season, which doesn't help the snow conditions. But even in the same ski area in the same week as a race where you're seeing a lot of brown, there are usually other parts of the area with much better conditions.

For example, race week in Val d'Isere is usually the second week of December, and it's on a face that gets a lot of sun and has quite a bit of exposed rock. So watching on TV, it's easy to think the skiing looks poor. But, there is so much terrain in the area that is higher in elevation and more sheltered from the wind and/or sun, which leads to much better conditions.

I've skied in Val d'Isere several times, and I can't remember the last time I skied down any part of the face that the men's races are held, because the conditions usually aren't enjoyable there. And I usually don't spend a lot of time around La Daille, which is where the women's races are run. Pretty much every other part of the mountain has better conditions than those two areas.
 
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I found that even lodging is cheaper in Europe. Hotels in squaw for example are over 300, hard to spend more than 100 in Europe.be?

That I am sure depends a lot. Europe and North America are big places, within each continent there are different times of the year, different locations, different levels of service. Makes it hard to say one is cheaper than the other. I think to say that, you'd have to be pretty specific. That said, in my experience it is roughly on the same order of magnitude, and the larger number of lodging options means that you can probably find something cheaper in Europe.

And I don't agree that snow is worse. Why would it be?
It could be worse because, compared to the Rockie Mountain areas in North America, The Northwestern Alps are slightly warmer and get more ocean storms with higher humidity and might have less north facing slopes.
 
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Jacob

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I found that even lodging is cheaper in Europe. Hotels in squaw for example are over 300, hard to spend more than 100 in Europe.

That can depend on how your travel plans match up to the accommodation in the towns you're staying in. For example, if you're doing a Saturday-Saturday 7-night stay in St. Anton, then you can find a lot of reasonably priced rooms in B&Bs. But, if you are looking to start and/or finish your stay any other night of the week, then you'll be limited to a smaller number of hotels that are usually much more expensive.

In some resorts, it's not a problem. But in others, you really have to stick to the 7-night stays to get good deals.
 

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